# Q: About Old Testament Law
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 15, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569 "2005-03-15T02:27:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/1 "2005-03-15T02:27:15Z")
In looking at [this](http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/sexual_discharges/lv15_29.html) [site](http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/sexual_discharges/lv15_30.html), I see that at one time the law dictated that on the eighth day after a woman’s period she’s supposed to take two doves to priest for him to sacrifice as atonement for her menses. I’m curious as to when this became part of the law, what the reasoning behind it was, and when it was finally set aside (after all, it doesn’t seem to be something that any sect either Christian or Jewish does anymore).
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/2 "2005-03-15T13:54:24Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#):
>
> , and when it was finally set aside (after all, it doesn’t seem to be something that any sect either Christian or Jewish does anymore).
Well, it is pretty much the same question as “Why doen’t we sacrifice animals anymore” which I asked when I was younger. My father, and our rabbi, told me the odd sounding answer that “Prayer is now the substitute for sacrifice.” I suspect that the offical reason given today is simular, never matter the real reason is that animal sacrifice isn’t popular in modern religions, so they stopped doing it.
As for christians, I suspect that it is something like the amazing ability to not eat kosher, while ignoring verses like this:
Lev.23:14,21,31
“It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.”
Mt.5:18-19
“Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till \*\*all \*\* be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.”
Please note the last verse says “all”, not just till the frst appearence of “jesus”
Personaly, I think the only reason religion can be perceived as civilized is by means of “cherry-picking”, but that is neither here, nor there.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/3 "2005-03-15T15:42:34Z")
Tuckerfan:
> [@](#):
>
> In looking at this site, I see that at one time the law dictated that on the eighth day after a woman’s period she’s supposed to take two doves to priest for him to sacrifice as atonement for her menses.
That’s not necesary for an ordinary period. Here is the passage in context, bolding mine:
> [@Leviticus 15](#):
>
> 25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time **other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period** , she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period. 26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period. 27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
>
> ```
> 28 " 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.
>
> ```
Now that you have things a bit more clear, some context, framed by the questions you asked:
> [@](#):
>
> I’m curious as to when this became part of the law,
Obviously, from the very beginning of Biblical religion.
> [@](#):
>
> what the reasoning behind it was,
The reasoning behind all these laws is that the human soul is a “piece” (as it were) of G-d, and the absence of it where it once was present or could have been present results in a state of impurity. The epitome of this is a corpse (of course, of course), which contains and transmits the deepest level of impurity. However, the stuff of which life is made also had the potential to contain a human soul, and so, its removal from the possibility of life is an impurity as well, albeit a lower level.
However, there is a distinction made between the NORMAL occurrence of this loss (ordinary seminal emission in a man, ordinary menstrual period in a woman) and the ABNORMAL occurrence of the same. When it is a normal occurrence, there is still the impurity (impurity simply defines a state of being, it is not to be thought of as a sin or a punishment, but merely has the consequence of not being allowed near consecrated places and objects), but that can be solved with the passage of time and immersion in water. The Biblical verses describing this are in Leviticus 15:16-24. When it occurs abnormally, though, that is presumed to be a divine punishment for some sin that had been committed. In that case, that needs to be rectified through sacrifices, described in the verses above for females, and described in Leviticus 15:1-15 for males.
> [@](#):
>
> and when it was finally set aside (after all, it doesn’t seem to be something that any sect either Christian or Jewish does anymore).
I can’t speak for Christianity, but in Judaism, it stopped being put into practice once sacrifices in general stopped being brought, after the destruction of the second Holy Temple in Jerusalem. It’s not that the law is no longer considered valid, but that we are not allowed to being sacrifices outside of the designated place now that a place had been so designated. In theory, everyone who has had such an abnormal flow since then has remained in their state of impurity, but in the absence of Holy Temple and sacrificial offerings, there is little consequence to that anyway, as I said earlier - the main thing that impurity affects is the ability to go to consecrated places (i.e., the Holy Temple, now non-existant) and touch consecrated objects (e.g., sacrifices and sacrificial implements, now non-existant).
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/4 "2005-03-15T15:59:19Z")
In Christianity, the requirement to follow the Old Testamant laws ended when Jesus died on the cross “for your sins”. He became the “New Covenant”.
This is GQ, not GD- remember, dudes.
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### Author:  [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)
#### Post date: [March 15, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/5 "2005-03-15T17:30:22Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#):
>
> she’s supposed to take two doves to priest for him to sacrifice as atonement for her menses. I’m curious as to when this became part of the law
Maybe about the time the dove breeders & sellers lobby became influential with the authorities?
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### Author:  [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)
#### Post date: [March 16, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/6 "2005-03-16T23:52:43Z")
A question for **cmkeller** : It seems you have an indepth knowledge of Hebrew law and history so may I ask a question that has been on my mind for some time? I have once heard that Judaism does not claim that there is a soul or after-life. That the “going to heaven or hell for your deeds and/or beliefs” is a christian construct. True? I am an atheist myself but curious as to the basic differences and origins. Can you enlighten me on the Law as it is now and perhaps in earlier days? I do not mean to highjack this thread but it seems a rare chance to get real insight. Thanks
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/7 "2005-03-17T01:07:54Z")
Well, I believe I am qualified for this question, having been born Jewish and all so:
Ganeden, the garden of eden is where good people go after they die. I place of human sacrifice in the real world, gehenna was transmogrified into the after life for bad people. all these probabley apear after jews encountered Zoroasterism, and prior to that, these wasn’t much idea of an afterlife, all retconing aside. Today, belief in the after life is sort of an also run idea in judaism, not necesary for a good life.
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### Author:  [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/8 "2005-03-17T03:46:31Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Ganeden, the garden of eden is where good people go after they die. I place of human sacrifice in the real world, gehenna was transmogrified into the after life for bad people.
Not sure I follow. Is **Ganeden** the original name of the Garden of Eden? What is **gehenna** then. Is this the later name for Bad-People-After-life-Place? What Christians call Hell?
> [@](#):
>
> Today, belief in the after life is sort of an also run idea in judaism, not necesary for a good life.
Also unclear to me. Did you mean to say “…an also run idea…” ? What does that mean?
I take it then that most Jews today subscribe to an afterlife theme…Heaven, Hell, Souls and such? Please forgive my not following this. I just wish to feel sure I do indeed follow you. Thanks
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/9 "2005-03-17T08:39:27Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#):
>
> Is **Ganeden** the original name of the Garden of Eden?
I guess. It means the exact same thing. Like I said, Gehenna is the oplace name iof a real place. I believe, a valley.
> [@Nicodemus2004](#):
>
> I take it then that most Jews today subscribe to an afterlife theme…Heaven, Hell, Souls and such?
I have not aken a poll, but I suspect most jew have not heard of the concept. Does no-one us the term, “also-ran” anymore? Last time I looked, it was a phrase mening something put out as a choice, but it’s being taken didn’t really affect outher people’s
opinions, or much of what happens to you.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/10 "2005-03-17T09:38:07Z")
I’ve been using the phrase wrong:
Also-ran:
1. A horse that does not win, place, or show in a race.
2. A loser in a competition, as in an election: “had enough support to place him in the middle of the also-rans” (George F. Will).
3. One that has little talent or success: just an also-ran in the art world.
I seem to be using it right as “also-ran idea” however, for a concept put out, without it beening expected to win, was an agreed upon defintion, from an informal poll of my friends.
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### Author:  [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/11 "2005-03-17T14:17:23Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Like I said, Gehenna is the oplace name iof a real place. I believe, a valley.
Gehenna was a garbage dump. Located some distance outside the city, it was teeming with vermin and stench. Fires burned there continuously. All in all, not a pleasant place and easy to see why it would be used as an example of a place of eternal torment.
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### Author:  [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/12 "2005-03-17T14:23:12Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#):
>
> I’ve been using the phrase wrong:
> Also-ran:
>
> 1. A horse that does not win, place, or show in a race.
> 2. A loser in a competition, as in an election: “had enough support to place him in the middle of the also-rans” (George F. Will).
> 3. One that has little talent or success: just an also-ran in the art world.
>
> I seem to be using it right as “also-ran idea” however, for a concept put out, without it beening expected to win, was an agreed upon defintion, from an informal poll of my friends.
**Scott\_plaid** I was unaware of the phrase. It is a good one and I thank you.
**Doctor Jackson**
> [@](#):
>
> Gehenna was a garbage dump. Located some distance outside the city, it was teeming with vermin and stench.
I seem to recall the concept now as a source of the current concept of Hell but couldn’t remember the term. Thanks
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/13 "2005-03-17T15:48:26Z")
Nicodemus2004:
> [@](#):
>
> I have once heard that Judaism does not claim that there is a soul or after-life. That the “going to heaven or hell for your deeds and/or beliefs” is a christian construct. True?
ABSOLUTELY NOT. I have heard this claim repeated numerous times, and it is utterly without foundation.
There is no clearer proof of Jewish belief in a soul and an afterlife in general than the fact that in I Samuel 28, Saul communicates through a medium with the soul of Samuel after Samuel had died. Absolute proof of a _general_ concept of existence of the soul and its continued existence in an afterlife in traditional Judaism.
The concept of reward and punishment after death is definitely less explicit and harder to pin down. However, there is definitely a generalized belief in reward and punishment for deeds, and there is certainly nothing in Scripture that limits said reward and punishment to the world of physical existence. Since an afterlife clearly exists, there could very well be reward/punishment there too, and traditional Judaism believes that that is so.
Part of the confusion may be the concept of “Heaven” and “Hell” as _places_, with actual physical-style descriptions, as popularized not so much in Scipture (Jewish or Christian) but in the works of Milton and Dante. Judaism does not have a hard-and-fast belief in the afterlife of _that sort_, but more leans toward the possibility that they describe states of being after death, feelings that a soul is subjected to after having separated from the body. To give one example, “Hell” is not so much an active punishment, but is the “burning” feeling of embarrassment and shame the soul feels for having sinned once it sheds its physical shell and has a clearer understanding of what its priorities should have been during its transient physical lifetime. Or it also might be a difficulty in the soul, so bound to its enjoyment of physical pleasures, in adjusting to a purely spiritual state of being…whereas those righteous souls which were more religiously observant have by that observance sensitized their souls to be properly prepared for the spiritual millieu. Or it could be some unified sense of these concepts…speaking of the afterlife in physical terms makes for at best an imperfect description, at worst, wholly inaccurate.
**Scott\_plaid** is correct that Jews generally refer to the blissful afterlife as “Gan Eden,” (Hebrew for the Garden of Eden, of Adam and Eve fame) and to the tormented afterlife as “Gehinnom” (Hebrew for Valley of the family of Hinnom, as **Doctor Jackson** said, a place of garbage incineration near Jerusalem). These are nicknames, based on Earthly locations, and not meant to indicate that the soul actually goes to those locations after death, merely that we are using the terms as anthropomorphizations for spiritual concepts (see end of above paragraph for disclaimer).
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/14 "2005-03-17T16:37:24Z")
There are a few other Old testament references:
Job10:19-22 For etrenal future
Job33:24 “hell”
Isa28:18 “hell”
Isa30:33 “fiery hell”
Zech3 9all) for an afterlife.
Eccl12:7 for the soul returning to God.
Daniel12:2-3 for a ressuraction
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/15 "2005-03-17T16:48:06Z")
How in the hell did we get here? Are you trying to find support for the christian concept of hell in the OT? Are you just posting random verses? I don’t get it. And anyway, could you quote directly. I don’t care enough to take this thread in a third direction after having woken up way to early today and answering posts. And besides, blah, blah blah, insert further ranting here.
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/16 "2005-03-17T20:09:48Z")
Nicodemus2004 asked the question, and several of us- including you- answered it, at least in part.
I was giving some biblical verses that supported some sort of afterlife- either Heaven or Hell.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/17 "2005-03-17T20:21:10Z")
I see. But could you quote them, instead of making people look them up?
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### Author:  [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/18 "2005-03-17T22:49:40Z")
To **cmkeller** , **Scott\_plaid** , **Doctor Jackson** and **DrDeth** , I thank you all for your insights. As I said it has been a question in my mind for sometime. As I said, I am an atheist myself of christian upbringing but consider myself to be a student of theology and to a lesser degree, philosophy. As far as the source of my question, I’m a bit embarrassed to admit at this point that it is somewhat less scholarly in origin. Years back, in an episode of Northern Exposure, the TV series, jewish doctor Joel Fleishman made a statement to the effect that no, we don’t have that whole life-after-death thing. Not a noble origin I know, but one that started me wondering about the other areas of different views (other than the obvious) there were between the two… and later to some smaller extent, the Muslum beliefs. Any further info/ light you can shed is always appreciated. Your humble student.
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### Author:  [@Zahava424](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zahava424)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/19 "2005-03-17T23:07:19Z")
For the record, according to some commentaries, Gehinnom was also the site of some child sacrifice (I believe to the gentile god Molech) during some particularly sinful times in the books of the prophets.
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### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [March 17, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/20 "2005-03-17T23:47:29Z")
Very nice answers, you guys. I just read this thread with a great deal of interest, as I too was under the impression that there was no overall belief in life and hell among Jews (where did this myth start, then?) How embarrassing, as I’ve tried to learn a little about religion over the years.
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