# Q: About Old Testament Law
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [March 15, 2005, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569 "2005-03-15T02:27:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/21 "2005-03-18T02:04:43Z")
**Nicodemus2004** - Part of the confusion arising in this thread comes from the fact that Judaism has split into a number of different branches. Over half of all the Jews in the United States belong to the **Reform Judaism** movement which started in Germany in the late 18th century. Reform Judaism is much more liberal and assimilated than other movements. For instance, Reform Jews do not keep kosher, and many Reform synagogues allow female rabbis and allow interfaith marriages, etc. Many Reform synagogues teach that there is no afterlife, and it is generally not an important part of Reform Jewish belief.
Here is the summary of Reform Jewish beliefs about the afterlife from [Belief.net](http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8054_1.html):
> [@](#):
>
> Reform Jews believe in the world to come and a messianic age (but no individual Messiah). Personal beliefs in the details of afterlife are diverse, as there is no official position. Some believe in heaven and hell but only as states of consciousness; some believe in reincarnation; some believe God is all-forgiving; and some may not believe in an actual afterlife. Regardless, Judaism generally focuses on living a virtuous life, rather than working toward reward after death.
Joel Fleishman was clearly a Reform Jew (he did not keep kosher, observe the Sabbath, wear a skullcap, etc.), and accurately represented Reform Jewish beliefs about heaven and hell.
**Scott\_plaid** - Your answer was correct with regard to Reform Judaism, which does regard the issue of the afterlife as an also-ran. You can believe in it if you want to, but it is not necessary to the practice of the religion. Most Reform Jews would give similar answers to yours when asked about heaven and hell, etc., which is why the idea that Jews do not believe in them has become so prevalent. Incidentally, the **Conservative Judaism** movement, which represents about 40% of the Jews in the U.S., also takes no official position on the afterlife.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/22 "2005-03-18T02:50:10Z")
It’s not so ofen that I get called right so often in the same thread. You seem to know a lot, and further more, seem intent on show the diffrences between reform judaism, and orthodoxy. I seem to recall some vague details about the more observant brances of judaism, under which “heaven” and hell" (easier for me to spell) are not physicaly far apart, but in the same building, as far as mystic imagery goes. Would anyone care to expand upon these?
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### Author:  [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/23 "2005-03-18T05:31:23Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#):
>
> As for christians, I suspect that it is something like the amazing ability to not eat kosher, while ignoring verses like this:
While your email answers the OP’s question fairly well, I thought that I would help provide info on this.
The easy secular answer is obviously society that has changed over the courses of thousands of years and primitive customs don’t need to be followed. No matter what their origin, society develops socially and intellectually to a point that such practices become what is considered taboo or just obvious supersistition. Using your food issue as an example, it is believed among many that the origins of the jewish tradition involving unclean foods was a the observance of sickness when consuming or preparing some foods certain ways. Forbidding foods such as pork and shellfish was basically a safety measure to prevent sickness as this foods would commonly cause food poisining due to being under cooked or bad preparation in primitive times. In their minds this may also have been interpreted as a message from God, that this food was not meant to be eaten. These particular foods do generally have higher risks of disease than other foods especially in primitive times. Having formal methods of food preparation and a unclean list may have helped reduce food based illness.
As for christianity’s exemption from these rules, they also justify this in other ways. Modern christians claim to be exempt from these old testament tenets for a variety of reasons, the belief by some that Jesus may have ate unclean foods, as well as his general treatment of it in the new testament, such as
> [@matt 15:10-11](#):
>
> 10After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. 11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
or
> [@](#):
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> [matt 15:16-20](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:16-20;&version=49;)
and
> [@](#):
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> [mark 7:15-19](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%207:15-19;&version=49)
As well as citing various new testament verses they believe states that they are absolved following from what is sometimes referred to as “old testament ceromonies” which they believe includes foods.
An example of such a verse is
> [@hebrews 9:9-10](#):
>
> 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings–external regulations applying until the time of the new order
And that the blood of Jesus absolves them from these OT ceremonies, by “creating a new covenant” (also referred to above as “the new order”)[[hebrews 9:11-15](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=hebrews%209:9-15;hebrews%2010:4-4&version=31)]
The general christian belief is that Jesus formed a new set of rules (which does include the 10 commandments btw) with his new covenant, abolishing the old ones.
There is also the vision of peter which is commonly interpreted as god telling them to go eat foods that were previously considered unclean. [Acts 11:4-10](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011:4-10;&version=49;)
These are the arguments commonly used to explain the cessation of many OT rituals and particularly the eating of pork and shellfish. That said, there are bibilical inconsistancies, and food is an issue that is still debated by bibilical scholars, with much fire coming from jewish and islamic groups. There are also groups of christians that do believe that pork and shellfish is evil or forbidden by god, and chose to abstain.
One must also understand that the beliefs and practices of christians today are based off of doctrine, some of which is believed to be divinely inspired, that has been passed down through modern history. It is not simply based off the raw words of the bible.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/24 "2005-03-18T05:35:18Z")
hmmm…
I need sleep. I will respond in the morning in full, but it will prababley be something like “But other statement by jesus say teh oposite!”
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### Author:  [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/25 "2005-03-18T05:50:25Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#):
>
> What is **gehenna** then. Is this the later name for Bad-People-After-life-Place? What Christians call Hell?
Well technically, Gehenna is orginally an ancient garbage dump outside of Jerusalem that was particularly nasty where fires burned almost constantly with trash, not to mention carcasses of animals and dead criminals.
This word is derived from Late Latin, from Greek Geenna, from Hebrew gê’ hinnm, short for gê’ ben hinnm or gai ben hinnom, valley of the son of Hinnom, a valley south of Jerusalem.
In ancient times they used this both figurtively and literally to describe a really bad place.
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### Author:  [@jeffh3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeffh3000)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/26 "2005-03-18T06:02:09Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#):
>
> hmmm…
>
> I need sleep. I will respond in the morning in full, but it will prababley be something like “But other statement by jesus say teh oposite!”
Yep I know there are contradictions, but these are the explanations commonly used by christians today, and they have backed it up with a millenia of doctrine, which often is considered for practical purposes to be infallible, into their faiths. There are also some christians today that have determined that they are NOT allowed to eat those items.
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### Author:  [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/27 "2005-03-18T12:57:56Z")
Do you mind a bit of constructive criticism? I hope not, because here it is. Above, you expanded on the definition of gehenna. That is a good thing. However, it just somehow rubs me the wrong way that you didn’t acknowledge posts earlier in this thread which said pretty much what you said, and instead quoted Nicodemus2004’s post. If you wanted to expand, I suppose one way would be to quote a recent mention of gehenna, such as post 7, 11, 13 and 19 and say "To expand on this further.”
Oh and as for your post about doctrine, yeah, I can see,” It’s tradition" as an explanation. No problem there.
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### Author:  [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)
#### Post date: [March 18, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-old-testament-law/294569/28 "2005-03-18T14:20:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> As for christians, I suspect that it is something like the amazing ability to not eat kosher, while ignoring verses like this:
>
> Mt.5:18-19
> “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.”
**Scott** , just to clarify the “Christian” position (as if there were just one) on this verse in particular, you have to look back to verse 17 which says:
> [@](#):
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> 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
So, Christian doctrine, at least those to which I subscribe, say that Jesus came to fulfill the law in our stead. Once he was crucified and rose then the “all be fulfilled” part kicked in - the new covenant.
There are verses in the New Testament that relate directly to food laws as well, but this ain’t the forum to discuss them.
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