# Q about The Chromatic Scale **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896 "2005-01-09T16:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ErinPuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dbc845/32.png) [@ErinPuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ErinPuff)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/21 "2005-01-09T20:57:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I would rank the modes from bright to dark in this order: Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Dorian, Phryigian. Technically, though (going by the relative number of sharps or flats), Dorian is “brighter” than Aeolian. (C minor/Aeolian–3 flats; C Dorian–2 flats) > [@](#): > > Locrian I won’t even place because it’s just plain weird. But if you wanted to, it goes after Phrygian. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/22 "2005-01-09T20:58:06Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > **Gorilla** and **Terminus** > > D’oh! As an amateur guitarist, the configuration of different instruments should have been an obvious reason for choice of key signature. Transposition is often the only remedy for the guitarist attempting some pieces, or use of a capo; but the latter can create an undesirable shift in pitch in some circumstances. Capos on well-made guitars usually hold pitch pretty well. It’s not so much that a capo produces an undesirable shift in pitch as it affects the tone of the instrument. Most obvious is what strings are ringing open in a standard-tuned chord position and which are in a capoed chord position. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/23 "2005-01-09T21:00:40Z")
> [@ErinPuff](#): > > Technically, though (going by the relative number of sharps or flats), Dorian is “brighter” than Aeolian. (C minor/Aeolian–3 flats; C Dorian–2 flats) Perhaps, but I’m going by how they sound to me. It didn’t even occur to me to judge them by the number of sharps and flats in the key. Interesting. Dorian sounds more aggressive to me than Aeolian. I suppose you can say it’s brighter as well. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/24 "2005-01-09T22:04:20Z")
> [@ErinPuff](#): > > Technically, though (going by the relative number of sharps or flats), Dorian is “brighter” than Aeolian. (C minor/Aeolian–3 flats; C Dorian–2 flats) Modes don’t have sharps or flats. What you’re describing is the accidentals acquired by modes when they’re based on C - in other words, you’re examining modes from an inherently-major/minor perspective. > [@](#): > > But if you wanted to, it goes after Phrygian. Locrain is a twentieth-century creation. You could place it wherever you want, but it still would be inconsistent with its surroundings. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/25 "2005-01-10T10:58:03Z")
> [@Pulykamell](#): > > Major is bright, happy. What about _Taps_? It’s in a major key, but doesn’t sound particularly bright or happy. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/26 "2005-01-10T11:04:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What about _Taps_? It’s in a major key, but doesn’t sound particularly bright or happy. It would be all to easy to go through the musical canon and find all the exceptions. But **Pulykamell** ’s further statement: > [@](#): > > These scales don’t exist in a vacuum; they certainly have emotional associations connected with them is complemented by the emotional associations of the piece in question. There’s nothing intrinsically happy _or_ sad about Taps - it’s got little to distinguish it structurally from the opening of _Fanfare for the Common Man_. But we somehow ‘know’ that it’s a sad piece, through the cultural baggage we’ve all acquired. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/27 "2005-01-10T15:02:28Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > “Sounds a bit odd to our ears” - to whose ears? And who says it sounds ‘odd’? And what do you mean by ‘odd’? “Seems to have an unsettled feeling” - in whose opinion? And what do you mean by ‘unsettled’ anyway? I speak as a songwriter, composer, arranger and performer of western-genre music. Certain chords are traditionally used in specific manners or with a certain tendancy. This is taught in Harmony class in music school, which really means 18th Century Harmony. Some examples: a dominant 7th chord (V7) leans towards resolution as a tonic (I), which sounds “final” compared to diminished or augmented chords. Those are typically used as transition harmonies. [And musical genres/idioms other than 18th C. harmony have their own cliches – the dom. 7th is such a fixture in jazz and rock that it cannot be described as “needing resolution” in all cases.] I didn’t invent the “unstable” definition of an augmented chord or the “tendency” sound of a tritone. But using the conventional definitions is a big help in doing takedowns, or transcribing music from sound to paper. Often in a work with a lot of instruments playing at once I find it difficult to tell exactly what notes are being played at first, but I might think, “that has an unstable sound, I’ll bet the notes define an augmented triad,” which leads me to the correct analysis. Is this from culture, from teaching, or inate? I don’t know. Probably a little of each. To me, a dirge in a minor key does sound sad. Is it because I have been taught to think that way? Maybe. Maybe not. > [@](#): > > Same goes for all the tired cliches the music luvvies tend to churn out about certain keys being best suited to certain moods or emotions, ‘A minor evokes qualities of blah blah blah’ or ‘D major tends to evoke moods of blah blah blah’. More arbitrary opinion masquerading as absolute or empirically demonstrable fact. Take any piece you like in A minor. Increase every single note by the same amount, from start to finish (easily done using varispeed). It’s now in a different key. Exactly the same darn piece of music. Exactly the same emotional impact in any given listener’s opinion. QED. I agree with you that defining, say the key of A minor as invoking emotion #1 and B minor as emotion #2 is probably a good example of how we fool ourselves (and you know all about that, **Ianzin** 🙂 ) but I must nitpick about your statement “It’s exactly the same darn piece of music.” Are you familiar with how equal temperment affects scales? If not, I wil briefly describe it – and this is only a concept, as IANA piano tuner. A piano tuner starts at one pitch, say A, and tunes, not the next note on the piano, but a fifth up, E. Next to tuning octaves, 5ths or 4ths are the easiest to get exactly right using beats (heterodynes). After tuning E, he tunes the next 5th up, B, then F#, etc. Now if he were to tune each of these EXACTLY, he would find that by the time he arrived back at A, he would be a little off due to accumulated differences. No, not errors, but the mathematical relationship of pitches is such that the first A does not match the last A no matter how accurate the interim intervals are. Just take my word for it or start googling. What to do? Equal temperment has the answer. As he tunes each 5th, he makes some slightly lower than the perfect value and some slightly higher, according to a table he has memorized. The sum of all the introduced “errors” should exactly compensate and A’ = 2 \* A. As a consequence, _not all scales are the same._ Some intervals are stretched, some are compressed, and the note intervals that have been stretched and compressed are different for each scale. So if a pianist transposes a work, the end result _is not the same as a computer transposing by mathematically raising all tones._ In a nitpick sense, of course. Can this be heard by the human ear? Probably only those with extremely good or well-trained ears. Personally, I have often felt I have been able to tell what key something is played in by the “feeling” it invokes, and I am right perhaps 90% of the time. But I have noticed that I can do this much more accurately for some instruments than others, and my theory is that the individual characteristics of each instrument (open G on guitar sounds diff from a fretted G, even if the same pitch) are subtle and perhaps subconcious clues. For anyone who says that stringed (non-fretted) instruments play in pure tunings, consider this: if they did, wouldn’t that produce a serious conflict when the orchestra plays with a piano, which doesn’t? Therefore, I say that all modern players have adjusted to tempered tunings so much they aren’t aware of it. But it’s an argument that will probably never be settled. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/28 "2005-01-10T15:32:34Z")
FYI: [Everything you ever wanted to know about tempered piano tuning, but were afraid to ask](http://www.precisionstrobe.com/apps/pianotemp/temper.html) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/29 "2005-01-10T16:00:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s not so much that a capo produces an undesirable shift in pitch as it affects the tone of the instrument. Yes, that is perhaps a better way of expressing what I was getting at. Playing a tune with the capo on the 9th fret certainly has an impact on the overall timbre of the instrument, but I do think also that one could chose to position the capo, for the purpose of convenience or ease, such that the range of available pitches simply doesn’t “work” for whatever aesthetic reason. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/30 "2005-01-10T16:08:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > For anyone who says that stringed (non-fretted) instruments play in pure tunings, consider this: if they did, wouldn’t that produce a serious conflict when the orchestra plays with a piano, which doesn’t? Therefore, I say that all modern players have adjusted to tempered tunings so much they aren’t aware of it. But it’s an argument that will probably never be settled. Orchestral strings (and to a lesser extent other sections) rarely use equal temperament. String sections are adept at adjusting intonation for the circumstances - which yes, includes accomodating the equal temperament of the piano when necessary. But enharmonic modulations eg in Dvorak or Schubert always cause problems for players unfamiliar with the music - they’re so far off equal temperament by default that the enharmony doesn’t work. And if you ever get a chance to hear string players tackle Webern for the first time and you’ll hear how difficult they find it to stick to equal temperament. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/31 "2005-01-10T17:49:37Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > What to do? Equal temperment has the answer. As he tunes each 5th, he makes some slightly lower than the perfect value and some slightly higher, according to a table he has memorized. The sum of all the introduced “errors” should exactly compensate and A’ = 2 \* A. > > As a consequence, _not all scales are the same._ Some intervals are stretched, some are compressed, and the note intervals that have been stretched and compressed are different for each scale. > > So if a pianist transposes a work, the end result _is not the same as a computer transposing by mathematically raising all tones._ In a nitpick sense, of course. Is that right? I thought all fifths are slighly flat and all fourths are slightly sharp in an equal temperament system. I thought the ratios between notes were absolutely fixed, and a major triad in C retains the same harmonic relationship as a major triad in F#. I thought that was the whole issue Mozart had about equal temperament. It’s possible I’ve been taught wrong, so please educate me if this is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/32 "2005-01-10T17:57:02Z")
Your site seems to agree with what I’ve been taught: > [@](#): > > If on the other hand, you play a cycle of fifths using intervals which are each slightly flat by just the right amount, when you reach the twelfth interval, you will end with f =3520 Hz! **If each fifth in the series is flattened by the same amount and the adjustment distributed evenly throughout the cycle, it works out that each fifth should be played flat by 2 cents**. When the resulting twelve notes are all shifted, by octaves, into ascending order, the result is an equal tempered chromatic scale. The spacing between the notes of this scale will have intervals which are all equal. > [@](#): > > When the resulting twelve notes are all shifted, by octaves, into ascending order, the result is an equal tempered chromatic scale. The spacing between the notes of this scale will have intervals which are all equal… > The intervals between the notes of a **just toned scale are not constant.** Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/33 "2005-01-10T20:15:27Z")
**Pulykamell,** I think you’re right, with reference to that site. Maybe I confused the issue, not being a piano tuner myself. First, a piano tuner puts felt next to two of the three strings used for most pitches to dampen them, so he is tuning only one string per note. Then, starting at A, he goes up a fifth, then down a fourth, up a fifth, etc. – this keeps the initial tuning range compact. The effect of up/down is theoretically the same as always up a fifth, of course, but if you shrink the fifths, you have to expand the fourths. If, after tuning a single octave, he ends up where he planned, he tunes the other single strings high & low in octaves, then removes the felt and matches the remaining strings with the tuned ones as unisons. As far as what pitch an orchestra plays at, due to vibrato for a string section and due to multiple strings per note on a piano, I think it would be more correct to say it is a range rather than an exact hz value. This of course helps to disguise slight pitch differences and is largely what makes the “chorus” sound of a string section as compared to a single violin. There is an additional factor we haven’t yet discussed. The human ear tends to hear, at the extreme ends of the keyboard, perfect octaves as slightly small. A tuner will adjust for this, but I don’t know how much in terms of cents. So when is a piano in tune? When the customer is satisfied. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/34 "2005-01-10T20:30:07Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > As far as what pitch an orchestra plays at, due to vibrato for a string section and due to multiple strings per note on a piano, I think it would be more correct to say it is a range rather than an exact hz value. This of course helps to disguise slight pitch differences and is largely what makes the “chorus” sound of a string section as compared to a single violin. This is true - but it doesn’t cover solo string instruments, or quartets. It also doesn’t deal with string sections playing without vibrato - and it’s not entirely coincidental that the period-performance folks are more aware of intonation issues. > [@](#): > > The human ear tends to hear, at the extreme ends of the keyboard, perfect octaves as slightly small. I never knew that! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/35 "2005-01-10T20:49:24Z")
It’s been so long since I heard about the extreme range octaves, that I thought I had better check some sources. [Here’s one:](http://www.vanderplas-perc.nl/artikel/stretuk.html) > [@](#): > > Perfect harmonic tuning would mean that at an A 440 Hz, the next octaves A 's frequency is doubled to A 880Hz. Again the next A will be doubled to A 1760Hz. Unfortunately the human ear does not comply to this rule: it hears high notes lower than actually computed. It could well be that the 2 octaves higher A is only in tune when its frequency is 1766 Hz ISO the computed 1760 Hz. In this case, when simultaneously playing both A1760 and A440, the result will be a kind of chorus-effect. Extra problem is that each kind of instrument delivers the chorus effect at differend frequencies: a grand concert piano can be mistuned less than e.g. a small upright piano. > > The chorus-effect shows that there is a phase-shifting between the two frequencies. Per Hertz difference in pitch, there is an extra beat, in other wordt, 2 Hz. mistuning results in 2 beats. The beats disappear when either A440 Hz is lowered or A1760 Hz is raised. > > Adapting the computed frequencies to correct the human ears’ fault, is called stretch-tuning. > > A (keyboard) instrument which is not stretch tuned, is generally being experienced as being “dead” in sound. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/36 "2005-01-10T21:33:16Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > It’s been so long since I heard about the extreme range octaves, that I thought I had better check some sources. [Here’s one:](http://www.vanderplas-perc.nl/artikel/stretuk.html) That’s actually quite interesting. I never knew that. In regards to equal temperament, a lot of what I said about key color being lost in the transition from well-tempered tunings to equal tempered tunings has to do with the consistent frequency ratios of intervals that exist today in equal temperament. A song transposed to D flat from C on a tuned piano should sound mathemetically the same. The fifths should be flat by 2 cents. The fourths should be sharp by about the same amount in both keys. There really shouldn’t be any relative-pitch distinctions between the two keys. Now, on a guitar, a fretted G and an open G are going to sound different. One, the tone is different from a fretted string and an open string. Two, the pressure you apply on the string with your finger slightly alters the frequency the string produces. Fret hard, fret soft, fret higher, fret lower and you will get miniscule fluctuations in your pitch. Not nearly enough to cause it to sound “out of tune,” but enough to keep the note from being perfect every time you play it. ---
**Author:** ![dotchan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/37 "2005-01-10T21:40:48Z")
_reads_ Wow. I’ve been a piano player from elementary to high school, and I always throught a _Well-Tempered Clavier_ was referring to the pianist, not the piano. :o My ignorance has been fought. Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/38 "2005-01-10T22:43:01Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > The standard pitch of C or A has varied much over time. According to [this site:](http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_tuning_hist.html) If Venice orchestras tuned at A=467, that would give a C of about 278. If so, that would probably be at an historic high. There is even [a movement to lower the standard pitch of A to 432,](http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_verdituning.html) which some claim has richer harmonics, although I suspect that might be more subjective observation than physical property. I’m not seeing where they say it has “richer harmonics” on that site. It looks more like a movement to perform Verdi operas at the original pitch to be historically accurate and so the vocal range is more reasonable. Were you referring to some _other_ source? I too wonder about claims that there is anything intrinsic to a particular pitch or key that makes it qualitatively different than another. I can understand how different keys would have different characteristics _on a particular instrument_, but in an abstract sense, I don’t see how it’s possible. I mean, if you sequenced a piece in the key of C on synthesizer, and transposed it to C#, maintaining all the exact pitch relationships between the notes, I can’t see how there would be any qualitative difference other than one being slightly higher, and any previous mental associations the listener has formed with respect to each key. Sound waves resonate because of mathematical _relationships_, not because of any absolute demarcations on the continuum of pitch. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/39 "2005-01-10T22:46:24Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > I too wonder about claims that there is anything intrinsic to a particular pitch or key that makes it qualitatively different than another…Sound waves resonate because of mathematical _relationships_, not because of any absolute demarcations on the continuum of pitch. Where this has been talked about earlier is in respect to intonation systems other than equal temperament. You’re right, that with an exact division of the octave into 12 equal steps, there’s no difference between keys. But use any other intonation system, and differences between scales on different notes necessarily appear, because the twelve intervals are not all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Jpeg\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/4bbf92/32.png) [@Jpeg\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jpeg_Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896/40 "2005-01-10T23:56:13Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > > [@ErinPuff](#): > > > > Technically, though (going by the relative number of sharps or flats), Dorian is “brighter” than Aeolian. (C minor/Aeolian–3 flats; C Dorian–2 flats) > > Modes don’t have sharps or flats. What you’re describing is the accidentals acquired by modes when they’re based on C - in other words, you’re examining modes from an inherently-major/minor perspective. If you play C Aeolian, you use 3 flats. If you play C Dorian, you use 2 flats. Ergo, Dorian is _less flat_ (and you could say “brighter”) than Aeolian. Why are you so smugly trying to cloud **ErinPuff** ’s point with your “major/minor perspective” strawman? She (?) could just as well have used E Aeolian and E Dorian as examples and the point still stands. Stop being so self righteous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-the-chromatic-scale/283896.md?page=3)