# Q; Catholicism: Abortion v. Murder **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 7, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607 "2009-03-07T00:42:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/21 "2009-03-12T02:31:11Z")
Why abortion and not adultery? IANACL or MoralTheologian, however in adultery all parties (wronged spouse(s); adulterous spouse(s); children born of adulterous union) can (after confession and penance) go forward to earn merit before God by being good members of the Church Militant. With abortion only the living (parent(s) doctors, nurses, car drivers, etc) can go forward to earn merit before God (after confession and penance). The aborted fetuses have no such opportunity, while being totally innocent of the sin. As to why murder does not carry a latae senentiae excommunication but abortion does, again not a canon lawyer or moral theologian, the murder victim has had opportunities to receive sacraments and commit sin (so not as innocent as the fetus), that the fetus has not. The fetus is totally innocent, having had no opportunity to sin, where the murder victim may have had the opportunity to commit both venal and mortal sins. Both of the above are my WAG. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/22 "2009-03-12T04:57:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > . . . So, to summarize > > Before 1588-general crime of homicide, which includes abortion > 1588- _Effraenatum_, creates crime of abortion, penalty is a latae senentiae excomm. for performing any abortion > 1591-_Sedes Apostolica_, only abortion of an “animated fetus” punishable by lat. sent. excomm. > 1869-_Apostolicae Sedis_-penalty of lat. sent. excomm for sucessfully performing any abortion (going back to the 1588 penalty). > > If I had to guess, it would be that the 1869 stiffening of the penalty was because of increased medical knowledge about pregnancy , and that the fetus was fully formed before quickening. I’m not so sure about the pre-1599 position. Abortion as an aspect of homicide? That view seems to depend on an understanding of human reproduction not available at the time, and is inconsistent with the theological views current at the time, and implicit in the canonical position from 1591 to 1869, that the foetus is not a person until it reaches a certain stage of development. True, from 1588 to 1591 the canonical position was that abortion attracted excommunication at any stage, but from my reading _Effraentum_ imposed the same penalty for all forms of contraception, so this is unlikely to be based on the view that abortion is homicide. Also from my reading, that particular encyclical was something of an embarrassment. It was widely ignored while it was in force, and it was withdrawn within a couple of years by the next pope because it was pastorally ineffective and theologically indefensible. All in all, it probably tells us rather more about the author’s attitude to sex than about the church’s attitude to abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/23 "2009-03-12T05:15:16Z")
> [@Bluffcityguy](#): > > Well, yes, someone did excommunicate you. Namely, you. That’s what an excommunication latae sententae means. It’s automatic, immediately upon commission of the sin for which canon law specifies excommunication latae sententae as a penalty. Just as I excommunicated myself when I decided that Catholicism was false and became an atheist. > > When you went to confession and received absolution for that sin, the excommunication was lifted (again, automatically). And if I decided tomorrow that Catholicism is true, and confess my apostasy to a priest and receive absolution for that sin, I can lift my own excommunication, too. But that doesn’t change the fact that by canon law, until I do so I’m still excommunicated. > > Note that excommunication doesn’t require some sort of positive action by the Church. In the case of such sins which incur the penalty of excommunication latae sententae, the excommunication occurs immediately upon commission of the sin in question. If someone in clerical authority (a priest or bishop) were to come to know of the sin, he could set a process in motion by which a competent church body would issue a declaration that the sinner is excommunicate, but that would be a recognition of the already existing excommunication, not an act which accomplishes the excommunication. > > Cheers, > > bcg How is that different than any other sin that one doesn’t confess? Genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/24 "2009-03-12T05:54:03Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > How is that different than any other sin that one doesn’t confess? Genuinely curious. The difference is that not many sins carry a penalty of automatic excommunication. If you’ve committed one of the other sins, and haven’t repented of it and sought reconciliation, then that creates a moral issue for you that you need to adress. But you aren’t excommunicated and, whatever other need you may have to confess and seek absolution, you don’t need to do that in order to have the penaltly of excommunication lifted, because you’re not subject to that penalty in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/25 "2009-03-12T06:46:03Z")
I guess I don’t understand what “excommunication” and “penalty” mean in this context. I thought the definition of sin was separation from God, and I’d presume by extention separation (in one’s own heart) from the Church as well (which is what I assume you mean by “penalty”). So I still don’t understand what the difference is, if “excommunication” means “separation from the Church within your own conscience, but absolvable next time you go to confession.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/26 "2009-03-12T06:57:53Z")
Excommunication doesn’t mean “separation from the church” at all, in any sense. It’s a canonical penalty which prevent you – except in emergencies – from receiving the sacraments, or participating in liturgy, but an excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic, just as an American who has been fined or imprisoned by the American courts for breaches of American law is still an American. ---
**Author:** ![Bluffcityguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ebca7d/32.png) [@Bluffcityguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bluffcityguy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/27 "2009-03-12T11:58:40Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Excommunication doesn’t mean “separation from the church” at all, in any sense. It’s a canonical penalty which prevent you – except in emergencies – from receiving the sacraments, or participating in liturgy, but an excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic, just as an American who has been fined or imprisoned by the American courts for breaches of American law is still an American. What he said. Just to add that, as I understand it, an excommunicated Catholic is still under the obligation to attend Mass, even though s/he can’t receive communion until the excommunication is lifted (in other words, I don’t think that excommunication means that the excommunicant is barred from participating in the liturgy; IIRC the excommunicated Catholic is encouraged to participate in the liturgy, the better to facilitate an eventual reconciliation with the Church). In most cases, the excommunication can be lifted by simple confession to a priest and absloution, though there are some cases where an additional action by the local bishop or by the Vatican is required. In those cases, ISTR that the priest hearing the excommunicated person’s confession should recognize when additional action is required by higher authority and start that process. Cheers, bcg ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/28 "2009-03-12T21:16:40Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I’m not so sure about the pre-1599 position. Abortion as an aspect of homicide? That view seems to depend on an understanding of human reproduction not available at the time, and is inconsistent with the theological views current at the time, and implicit in the canonical position from 1591 to 1869, that the foetus is not a person until it reaches a certain stage of development. But the idea was that once the fetus has reached that stage of development, it is a homicide. See, for instance, book 4 of Peter Lombard’s “Four Books of Sentences”, and also Gratian (“Abortion is homicide once the fetus is ensouled”) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607/29 "2009-03-12T21:49:54Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Whats the difference, and why is abortion worse then murder? Abortion is the cutting off a person leaving no trace of their connection with humanity, there is no name, no death certificate, no indication that that person was ever a member of the human family, just a obscure reference in someone’s medical record of a abortion of a unknown person. Ex-com is the same thing, cutting off that person from humanity. And the RCC imposes the punishment as the legal system can’t if it allows it. So in a eye for a eye thing it is the same. Murder is handled by the legal system, but the person who is murdered has a record and is acknowledged as being human. So the legal system handles the punishment, and there is no basis of cutting that person off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-catholicism-abortion-v-murder/488607.md?page=1)