Umm, zev- in Genesis9, there are commandments that G-d mentions to Noah. They are: But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat". And “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed…”. By which I do get the “Do not murder” and “Do not eat living animals”. However, the rest of the “Noahide laws” do not occur in the Torah/NT/Bible. I do understand that there is a list in the Talmud, but still…
And, altho i have used this quote before, Hillel did say “What is hateful to you, do not do unto others. This is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary”. JC just took that theory a half step further.
Yes- there are times where that which is not hateful to YOU might be very “hateful” to others. But even the long, seemingly comprehensive list of Laws in the Torah are not all-inclusive, and require EXTENSIVE “commentary” in the Talmud, noy to mention copious amounts of argueing & debating amoung Talmudic scholars. The bit about not mixing Dairy with Poultry being a prime example.
Yes, Daniel, I grant you the point that the list of Noahide commandments are not explicitly mentioned in the text and are derived Talmudically. You must understand, however, that for Orthodox Jews, the written text and the oral traditions that accompany it (from which the Talmud comes) are considered as one.
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Yes, but Hillel didn’t advocate tossing all the mitzvos overboard, so to speak. He considered the commandments to be that commentary.
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Well, the written text was never meant to stand on it’s own. It needs the oral traditions that come with it in the Talmud. (I know I’ve gone through this before, but for the benefit of the new listeners.) For example:
Sabbath It says not to work on the Sabbath. Fine, what’s work? Moving my couch from one side of my living room to another? Kite flying? Posting on SDMB?
Sukkos It says that on Sukkos we are to take the fruit of “beautiful trees.” What trees? What fruit? And once we know what fruit, what are we to do with it once we’ve taken it?
Shofar blowing on Rosh HaShannah. It says that Rosh HaShannah is to be a day of “blowing.” Blowing what? For how long are we to blow? All day?
Yom Kippur On Yom Kippur, it says we are to “afflict” ourselves. How? Fasting? Maybe we should sit in an oven all day? Whip ourselves? What is the meaning?
From these examples, and others I can bring, it should be obvious that the written text of the Torah was not meant to stand on it’s own, but to be supported by oral traditions that accompany it.
zev- i quite agree that the Torah’s list of “thou shalts” & “Thou shalt nots” do need, in many cases- extra 'regulations". But you must agree that sometimes not even those posted in the Talmud are enuf to settle every dispute, at least without much Tamudic argueing. I have no problem with the Talmud serving, as it were, as the “regulations” to the Torahs “code” (but only for those of the Jewish faith, of course). (Federal Laws come in “Code & Regulations”- the Code is what Congress writes, the Regs are what Bureaucrats write- oftimes guided by Court decs)
And it is the same with JC’s commandments- they are there, and they are clear… EXCEPT in those “lifeboat” or specific cases you mention. And, some Churhes, like the RC church, also have ‘Tamudic arguements’ over what was meant, and what must be done in a specific case. Some Churches, like mine- leave it up to the “Spirit” in each of us to give that guidance in a given specific case.
I, unfortunately, don’t have an answer for you. It’s something that I’ve been thinking a lot about lately myself.
I would say that the primary force which determines how we keep Biblical laws and how we determine exactly what are Biblical laws depends on which denomination we are brought up in/taught in. I know that has been said before. And, unfortunately, I think many churches nowadays have resulted from differences of opinion and pride more than a true call of God or revelation of some overlooked truth. Politics, it’s all politics.
Wish I had something more pertinent to add to this conversation other than “you’re not the only person wondering this!”.