# Q: How many poor, black Katrina victims does it take to equal one rich 9/11 victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749 "2005-09-02T16:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/181 "2005-09-03T03:58:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Who has said that things are proceeding as they should? Nw you are reading into the comments. > > The point is that we were _not_ prepared to have a city of 480,000 people (with an additional million or so in the suburbs) suddenly become the bottom of a lake. Preparations were _not_ made in a timely fashion. Preparations needed for evacuation, I understand. Preparations needed to protect the infrastructure in anticipation of the storm, I understand. Preparations needed to conduct extensive search and rescue operations, I understand. Preparations needed to get food and water to stranded people in less than a week? I do not understand. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/182 "2005-09-03T03:59:16Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > The simple matter is that people are going to die. What are you going to do about it? You’ve got a better idea? Let’s hear it! But if you don’t, and the military needs a few more days to practice its art, then yes–gas up the Charger, we’re hitting the WalMart on the way out of town. We’ll be sure to apologize to the victims on Canal Street for getting in the way of all the other help they’re getting. Read the post you’re replying to: \*\*However, the reality is that such ad hoc activities actually take away from the greater effort to provide relief to larger numbers of people. \*\* DO YOU HAVE ANY TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE IN LOGISTICS? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/183 "2005-09-03T04:00:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not hard to get one truck loaded with supplies and over there, no. > Not hard to get three trucks. > > …snip… > > Again I ask: what training or study have you made of logistics? Do you understand that big operations are never put into effect by saying, “OK, everyone, let’s just go!” I have made no specific study of logistics. I am offering opinion, with many relevant facts. I have not seen your proof of creditial, and few facts. The Teamsters can organize the trucking. If they need help. Get a few hundred terminal managers to help or better yet. Ring, Ring, Ring Fedex & UPS: do you have any extra capacity to help coordinate the shipper of massive supplies. Lets say 1000 trucks to New Orleans and surrounding area in a time of national emergency. Facts about Fedex [About FedEx, Corporation, Facts](http://www.fedex.com/us/about/today/companies/corporation/facts.html?link=4) Consolidated Information for All FedEx Companies Average Daily Volume More than 6 million shipments for express, ground, freight and expedited delivery services Service Area More than 220 countries and territories, including every address in the United States Workforce More than 250,000 employees and contractors worldwide [fedex.com](http://fedex.com) Over 15 million unique visitors monthly; more than 3 million tracking requests daily and more than 15 million packages shipped via FedEx Ship Manager monthly Operating Facilities Express: 882 stations; 10 air express hubs Ground: 28 ground hubs; over 500 pickup/delivery terminals Freight: 321 service centers Office/Print: More than 1,450 locations including FedEx Kinko’s Office and Print Centers, FedEx Kinko’s Ship Centers, commercial production centers and managed services locations. Air Operations 670 aircraft; more than 375 airports served worldwide Ground Fleet More than 70,000 motorized vehicles for express, ground, freight and expedited delivery service Dropoff Locations 669 FedEx World Service Centers 1,272 FedEx Kinko’s Office and Print Centers 7,056 FedEx Authorized ShipCenters® 41,525 FedEx Drop Boxes (including 4,990 U.S. Postal Service locations) \*\* So Fedex could handle another 1000 trucks. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/184 "2005-09-03T04:01:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Read the post you’re replying to: \*\*However, the reality is that such ad hoc activities actually take away from the greater effort to provide relief to larger numbers of people. > \*\* > > DO YOU HAVE ANY TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE IN LOGISTICS? Do You? ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/185 "2005-09-03T04:01:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > “Secretary Rumsfeld, clear out the insurgents in Iraq!” “Yes, sir! Right away, sir! Just as soon as we can possibly do it. Just please don’t ask me to drop food out of helicopters to help people in the continental USA. We’re just not prepared for that kind of logistical nightmare. But don’t worry about Iraq, we’ve got it under control. Everything is proceeding as it should. We’re doing everything we can.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/186 "2005-09-03T04:03:19Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Just because we **can** make it hard doesn’t mean we have to. Besides, it ends at your first question. If you’re military, and POTUS tells you to get it done ASAP, are you really going to hang around to ask POTUS #2-#8 or are you just going to get it done? I think you misunderstood the intent of my post. I was simply pointing out it’s not just a simple matter of using helicopters to pick up and drop off food/water to people. There’s a whole chain of activities that need to be decided and acted upon, not to mention coordinating/communicating this activity with relevant parties. To have been effective, this whole chain needed to have been worked on DAYS ago (if the decision to use helicopters to drop food/water to people was to be made). Actually, the whole chain needed to have been outlined WELL in advance of such a scenario happening. If you want to place the blame squarely on President Bush - that’s fine. He DOES deserve some of the opprobrium that’s been heaped upon him for what’s been happening. I just wanted to point out that it isn’t a simple matter of picking up the phone and say “get this done” (To be fair, it IS simplier for the President to do something like that; but it needs to be done in the context of him being on top of the situation - like as the events unfolded on Monday and Tuesday. Clearly, the President, DHS, and FEMA weren’t sufficiently on top of things to make an adequate response. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/187 "2005-09-03T04:06:16Z")
**Bricker** : My father was a terminal manager for several trucking companies in the 60’s through the early 90’s. He went from no computers to minimal computers in the 90’s. Most of the time he was handling 80-100 trucks per day. Apparently my Father was superman. I don’t understand your logic. You just say it is hard and therefore it is. Please back up any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/188 "2005-09-03T04:07:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Read the post you’re replying to: \*\*However, the reality is that such ad hoc activities actually take away from the greater effort to provide relief to larger numbers of people. > \*\* > > DO YOU HAVE ANY TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE IN LOGISTICS? Tell you what. In addition to apologizing to the dying people for taking away from the greater relief effort that is still DAYS away, we’ll also ask for forgiveness that we have no formal training or experience in logistics. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/189 "2005-09-03T04:08:34Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I have made no specific study of logistics. > I am offering opinion, with many relevant facts. > I have not seen your proof of creditial, and few facts. > > The Teamsters can organize the trucking. If they need help. Get a few hundred terminal managers to help or better yet. > > Ring, Ring, Ring Fedex & UPS: do you have any extra capacity to help coordinate the shipper of massive supplies. Lets say 1000 trucks to New Orleans and surrounding area in a time of national emergency. How do you pay FedEx? Do you understand that even if FedEx says they will volunteer, the law says they may later lodge a claim for payment, unless very specific legal steps are taken first? So before you can call FedEx and say, “Hey, lend us 1000 trucks,” you have to figure out how to accept donated services without possibility of future contract ratification. What’s the answer to that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/190 "2005-09-03T04:12:53Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > **Bricker** : My father was a terminal manager for several trucking companies in the 60’s through the early 90’s. He went from no computers to minimal computers in the 90’s. Most of the time he was handling 80-100 trucks per day. > Apparently my Father was superman. I don’t understand your logic. You just say it is hard and therefore it is. Please back up any of this. I see. On which week did your father go from handling no trucks with no infrastructure to handling 80-100 trucks with all the requisite infrastructure in three days? Your father had an existing operation. He did not have to create one from scratch. He didn’t have to get trucks from other outfits and drivers from other jobs and supplies from different places and get everything in place and moving in three days. Did he? ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/191 "2005-09-03T04:13:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your solution, when asked for an explanation of how you’d make it happen, is that you’d order someone else to make it happen. No, my explanation is that it could have been ordered, and had it been ordered, it would have happened, without the one who ordering it knowing all the details. One way or another, it would have been done. Something would have been done. Unless…we were more concerned with the logistics than the people. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/192 "2005-09-03T04:13:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you pay FedEx? > > Do you understand that even if FedEx says they will volunteer, the law says they may later lodge a claim for payment, unless very specific legal steps are taken first? > > So before you can call FedEx and say, “Hey, lend us 1000 trucks,” you have to figure out how to accept donated services without possibility of future contract ratification. What’s the answer to that? You misread by post. I suggested Fedex and UPs could help coordinate and the Trucks would come from everywhere via the teamsters. BtW. Worry about the contract after the rescue please. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/193 "2005-09-03T04:16:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I see. > > On which week did your father go from handling no trucks with no infrastructure to handling 80-100 trucks with all the requisite infrastructure in three days? > > Your father had an existing operation. He did not have to create one from scratch. He didn’t have to get trucks from other outfits and drivers from other jobs and supplies from different places and get everything in place and moving in three days. > > Did he? He was one man largely without computers. I would think a huge logistic organization like FedEx could handle 500-1000 trucks pretty quickly. Would you please tell us where you have your expertise from. You keep downplaying everyone else knowledge. What is yours? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/194 "2005-09-03T04:18:27Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Tell you what. In addition to apologizing to the dying people for taking away from the greater relief effort that is still DAYS away, we’ll also ask for forgiveness that we have no formal training or experience in logistics. Instead of apologizing, how about simply admitting that your lack of training and experience means that you lack the background the judge the scope, size, and complexity of the operation? You’re like a heart transplant patient telling the surgeon, “Look, what’s so hard? You put me under, cut open the chest, take out my bad heart, and stick in a good one. I don’t get what the problem is!” I don’t have extensive training in logistics myself, although it’s clear I have more than you do. But I am a program manager for a government contractor - commonly known as a “Beltway bandit”. My JOB is executing projects under government contract. I am excruciatingly familiar with the huge number of background tasks that have to be accomplished when ramping up a program of any appreciable size, especially when government funding is involved. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/195 "2005-09-03T04:18:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > They screwed up. That is a given. But a claim that they should be able to throw something together and just have it happen simply reflects a naive belief that logistics are a simple matter. My sentiments exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/196 "2005-09-03T04:20:24Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I think I was aked to respond to this. > > You could use **Helicopters**. > You can lower food, Water, flashlights, medical supplies in water proof containers. > Better yet you can find a nearby dry spot and drop the supplies. > They make very large, heavy duty bags for asbestos removable and watertight storage. These are either tape sealed or basically “Ziploc” like. > I’ve used them in both Navy and in Asbestos removal. > Due to the chaos, you **would not** lower by sling as you might loose the sling if people try to hold on. > > You \*\*cannot \*\* readily do a WWII style air drop by parachute, there is a larger logistic issue with these and you cannot aim. > > You just have to get the Helicopters there and send \*\*100’s of trucks \*\* with Fuel and supply for them to relay. It was a loaded question. Helicopters, by the very limits of their design, are not useful for mass transit of freight. They’re great for plucking people out of harms way but are limited beyond that function. By default, they serve a limited role because of their payload and also their range. It takes time to stage them from other areas of the country and they require a maintenance support group in addition to a nearby source of fuel. All this ignores the fact that you can’t just drop stuff on people. Air-drops require a neutral place to unload and doing it in a flooded area is a great waste of time and material. The payload will float away or sink. Either way it will be contaminated by the water it falls in. It is possible to drop small items individually but we’re talking about a large number of people. Water bottles would be out of the question because they would either break on impact or injure someone. The Asbestos removal bags sound like a great idea that FEMA should look into. Using helicopters to transfer freight means they are not being used for rescue operations. They could not get to the hospitals by boat because of the rioting. They had to evacuate at least 2 hospitals in addition to the search and rescue made necessary by the people who did not leave the city. As Sequent pointed out, the posted weather alert was clear as to the dangers involved. Those who willingly stayed have nobody to blame but themselves and the mayor totally screwed the people who couldn’t leave. The only logical disaster plan was to organize a total evacuation BEFORE the storm hit. The city had all the assets necessary to carry it out. From what I can see, the city of New Orleans had virtually no emergency plan for such an event and have exercised nothing resembling common sense in the days that followed. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/197 "2005-09-03T04:20:36Z")
> [@eponymous](#): > > If you want to place the blame squarely on President Bush - that’s fine. And I don’t. Maybe he wanted to do a food drop and his advisors talked him out of it for all the above reasons. Perhaps they made a compelling case, and yes, perhaps they were right. Perhaps we put ourselves in a situation where doing nothing really was the least of all evils. I can’t say it isn’t possible, not for certain–just that it should have been possible. Something, some course of action preferable to doing NOTHING should have been possible. And with all our resources, if really there was nothing we could do, I pity the President who has to report that to the American people. I pity the administration who has to make that case, because I don’t know anybody who’s going to buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/198 "2005-09-03T04:21:25Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > You misread by post. > I suggested Fedex and UPs could help coordinate and the Trucks would come from everywhere via the teamsters. > > BtW. Worry about the contract after the rescue please. Ahhhh! Worry about the contract after the resuce?? Who is the brave soul that issues an illegal order? Halliburton gets a no-bid contract with a detailed proposal, and people scream fraud. Now you want to award a multi-million dollar contract without even a proposal or a SOW? And trust that no one accuses you of fraud or mismangement later? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/199 "2005-09-03T04:26:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ahhhh! Worry about the contract after the resuce?? Who is the brave soul that issues an illegal order? Halliburton gets a no-bid contract with a detailed proposal, and people scream fraud. Now you want to award a multi-million dollar contract without even a proposal or a SOW? And trust that no one accuses you of fraud or mismangement later? Oh, and since there’s no written contract – who is liable when one of your truck drivers gets hurt, and one of your trucks is destroyed by looters? “Worry about that later?” How do these trucks pay for the fuel they use to get there? Who is ultimately liable for that cost? What fool would authorize the use of company resources without some kind of guarantee that these questions are handled? Even a company president may have his heart in the right place… but he doesn;t own those vehicles; the stockholders do, and he has no right to subject them to risk of loss or damage without some sort of authorization. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/200 "2005-09-03T04:28:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Instead of apologizing, how about simply admitting that your lack of training and experience means that you lack the background the judge the scope, size, and complexity of the operation? You’re like a heart transplant patient telling the surgeon, “Look, what’s so hard? You put me under, cut open the chest, take out my bad heart, and stick in a good one. I don’t get what the problem is!” > > I don’t have extensive training in logistics myself, although it’s clear I have more than you do. But I am a program manager for a government contractor - commonly known as a “Beltway bandit”. My JOB is executing projects under government contract. I am excruciatingly familiar with the huge number of background tasks that have to be accomplished when ramping up a program of any appreciable size, especially when government funding is involved. Thank you for the last post. It is impolite to dismiss everyone Else’s skills when you don’t identify your own. I really do appreciate the explanation. You don’t see how UPS & FedEx could have space capacity to help coordinate trucks if the could be found? You don’t think 1000 trucks could be found and loaded within 24 hours of the levee breaking. You have to know that these days manufacturing companies can and do schedule when trucks go in and out of the docks in 15-30 minute windows. The smallish Manufacturing company I work for and right code for does this quite well. I am a programmer/analyst by trade. I was a Navy Electrician and an HVAC Mechanic for a hospital. So no my skills would not allow me to oversee the logistical nightmare myself but their are many skill professionals out there that working as a team could. I used my father as an example, because he handle a large operation with one assistant. I bring up truckers, because I knew a lot of truckers and I know they would have loved a chance to help out doing there job. (I also know many of them would love an excuse to drive there at breakneck speeds but thats another story) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=11)