# Q: How many poor, black Katrina victims does it take to equal one rich 9/11 victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749 "2005-09-02T16:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/241 "2005-09-03T22:03:20Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > _Salt_water. Sigh. All my friends are relatively self sufficient and would understand this without explanation. I’ve got to stop assuming what other people know. The buildings would retain the water in the plumbing lines. If you go to the highest outlet and open it then the water will flow with gravity because there is no longer a vacuum holding it in the pipes. Plumbers (and therefore building maintenance personnel) would know this because you can’t solder a joint with water and the only way to drain a line would be to open a facet at the highest point. You can find the idea on [FEMA’s](http://www.fema.gov/rrr/waterf.shtm) web site. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/242 "2005-09-03T22:09:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Sigh. All my friends are relatively self sufficient and would understand this without explanation. I’ve got to stop assuming what other people know. > > The buildings would retain the water in the plumbing lines. If you go to the highest outlet and open it then the water will flow with gravity because there is no longer a vacuum holding it in the pipes. Plumbers (and therefore building maintenance personnel) would know this because you can’t solder a joint with water and the only way to drain a line would be to open a facet at the highest point. You can find the idea on [FEMA’s](http://www.fema.gov/rrr/waterf.shtm) web site. Charity Hospital Emergency Handbook: In case of disastrous hurricane, when you’ve got a spare minute, log on to FEMA’s website for possible water options (y’all have a plumber, right?). ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/243 "2005-09-03T22:15:56Z")
And what happens if they’ve already been using the water from the top floor outlets? Trying to find the story, but the ICU was on the 16th floor, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/244 "2005-09-03T23:04:23Z")
Sequent: This is my last posting to you outside of the Pit. Your postings describing other people’s posts, especially those of mine, are dishonest. That dishonest description, as Bricker has ably pointed out just above, is based on your personal ignorance. Evidently you don’t care about facts, as shown by your casual–and ignorant–dismissal of the points brought to your attention by other posters in this thread. Your stunningly ignorant comment about the Army in response to my query also belies your prejudice. You may want to pretend that it doesn’t, but it does. As a matter of fact, which you will of course ignore, your OP is based on your prejudice, not others’. As I said above, I prefer honest debate. You obviously don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/245 "2005-09-03T23:07:59Z")
Monty: Somehow, I’m going to have to manage to live with your disappointment. Buh-bye. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/246 "2005-09-03T23:20:56Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Thank you for the last post. It is impolite to dismiss everyone Else’s skills when you don’t identify your own. I really do appreciate the explanation. > > You don’t see how UPS & FedEx could have space capacity to help coordinate trucks if the could be found? > > You don’t think 1000 trucks could be found and loaded within 24 hours of the levee breaking. You’d think that, but no (or a qualified maybe). I’ve been in the business for 25 years so I’ll weigh in with what I know. I’ve dealt everything from 6-place Navaho’s to Russian SU-125’S (bigger than a C-5A). Same thing with trucks. If it can be lifted I’ve moved it. In any given metro area you are going to have a range of 25-50 trucks available on any given day. Advanced warning might increase that number. When I say available I’m talking about a 50 foot trailer with a single driver. There are many more trailers than drivers because of pre-stage float. If teams are required that number drops significantly. Anything farther than about 550 miles would require a team. I’m also assuming normal commerce continues. In the affected disaster area you will lose the freight companies (no freight to pick up) but gain the idled truckers. The companies that you mentioned have people that do exactly what you are talking about except they do it in a regional manner. All the major freight companies have regional hubs and logistics is handled on that level. It would be possible, and a damn good idea, for FEMA to put together a National Guard style team consisting of people in my field. They would be called up as needed. To be effective they would have to specifically look for people in all parts of the country (assuming you want to move freight from all parts of the country). It’s not just the skill of logistics, it’s the knowledge of the surrounding areas that is useful. All this potential planning would not have worked in this case. Flooding and riots prevented access to the areas needed. No sane company is going to send a driver and $150,000 worth of truck/trailer into either situation (insurance doesn’t cover riots and drivers are fond of breathing). I watched a trucker on the news (I recognized the company) who said he came out of Dallas days before but was held back by his company. I expect the same thing to happen in similar situations so the simplest solution would be to pre-stage freight just as the military would do in a war. From that point the National Guard units would move the material using military equipment made for the job. I have to tell you, from a logistics standpoint, this disaster has driven me nuts. I would like to take the Mayor and the Governor and clunk their heads together. FEMA was folded into Homeland Security so the coordination of assets should have improved. They were pre-staged for the effects of the hurricane yet there seems to be no method of transition when local efforts fail. This situation didn’t need the sophisticated planning of a military campaign but it needed SOMETHING. It required a small group of logistics planners and some communication devices. A map of the city is all that was needed to start plotting out the affected areas and coordinate the assets available. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/247 "2005-09-03T23:39:03Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > And what happens if they’ve already been using the water from the top floor outlets? Trying to find the story, but the ICU was on the 16th floor, I think. ??? walk downstairs, fill container, walk upstairs. Repeat as necessary. Hospitals have lots of sinks/showers so there will be a lot of stored water in those buildings relative to an office complex. Understand, I’m not passing judgement on the medical staff because they’re busy 25 hrs a day during an emergency. My expectations are with the support group. It may come to light that they used all the water for patients and medical use. While I’m Monday morning quarterbacking the situation I have to question the location of the emergency generators on floors that are vulnerable to flooding. It’s New Orleans for crying out loud. Put the friggin thing on the roof or a nearby parking garage. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/248 "2005-09-03T23:46:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > ??? walk downstairs, fill container, walk upstairs. Repeat as necessary. Hospitals have lots of sinks/showers so there will be a lot of stored water in those buildings relative to an office complex. Understand, I’m not passing judgement on the medical staff because they’re busy 25 hrs a day during an emergency. My expectations are with the support group. It may come to light that they used all the water for patients and medical use. > > While I’m Monday morning quarterbacking the situation I have to question the location of the emergency generators on floors that are vulnerable to flooding. It’s New Orleans for crying out loud. Put the friggin thing on the roof or a nearby parking garage. Ya. The story I was trying to find, they mentioned that it was just a happy coincidence that the ICU was that high up, and I thought, I hope it’s _not_ just a coincidence. We’re all Monday morning quarterbacking, to an extent. But I started quarterbacking on Wednesday, along with everybody else, and it was still a few more days until our team was even on the field. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/249 "2005-09-04T00:03:04Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > So you don’t have a problem agreeing to the fact that racism has played a part in the sense of a long, inured, institutional kind of racism, one that set the stage for the current disaster. […] > > Then why is it so improbable for one to conclude that that long racism–that developed over hundreds of years and has been active right up through the present–did\*\* not suddenly cease\*\* as soon as this hurricane went through? I mean, wouldn’t it be more sensible to conclude that that racism is still and will still continue to inform many people’s actions, both through the recovery and beyond than to consider the idea that it may have just suddenly halted until all the evidence is in? The evidence keeps coming in, and it doesn’t look good[…] The evidence so far to me definitely doesn’t look good, but because to me it points to incompetence, negligence, and heads-up-their-fundaments-ence of various and sundry authorities who by now should know better. IOW, what I’m getting is that the authorities were caught with their pants not just down, but back at the tailor’s. You are asking us to consider the possibility that the slow response is the result of an inured, institutional attitude of _"who cares, it’s just a bunch of poor n_\*\*_rs, no rush"_. OK, I’m considering it, and finding that it’s not convincing – to me. BTW, I think the title of the thread frames the issue in a way that can send us down the wrong argument. It could be interpreted as a claim that the level of assistance and mobilization for the hundreds of thousands across a wide area that were endangered by the Katrina aftermath, be equivalent on a _per-capita_ basis to the relatively small numbers, in highly-localized locations, directly affected by 9/11 (BTW, how white were the bus staff of Windows of the World? How rich were the police and firefighters?) . What’s really in question is the promptness, decisiveness and scale of response – which _EVEN George W. admits were “unacceptable”_, in his usual distractedly understated way – and the adequacy of planning (a failure). In the case of the latter it looks extra-bad because unlike 9/11 a hurricane strike and/or the New Orleans levees breaching IS something you plan for. In the case of the former, there have been brought up here a lot of really good reasons why it may have been unrealistic to expect quick, massive _deus-ex-FEMA_ action, but the fact is that there IS an expectation created that a disaster in the USA, short of a planetary-scale catastrophe, does NOT make people wait 5 days w/o supplies for relief to arrive in-force. And as you yourself put it, there is a gut reaction, an _emotional_ response that on one hand says _“goddammit, gotta do something, ANYTHING!!”_, and on the other says _“no way, I refuse to believe we can’t!”_. > [@](#): > > I’ve been offering suggestions for solutions, you’ve been telling me why they won’t work, and people have been dying. Here’s the thing, Bricker: when people are dying, helping them becomes a very basic, elemental idea. One that is immediately apparent to everybody. Even you, I would hope, feel that basic, elemental motivation. > > So, just imagine yourself standing in front of a field with two or three helicopters. In front of you is an angry mob of people who have no logistical training whose friends and family are dying in New Orleans. Patiently, you explain to them over the bullhorn the Subtle Art of Military Logistics and why, even though those helicopters are just sitting there, it would be impossible (as some people here are saying) or detrimental to the larger effort to use the helicopters to drop food and water. > > One person raises his hand and says, “I can fly one of those.” Another person raises his hand and says, “I brought a truckload of water and food.” I hate to say it man, but we, the ignorant masses, would trampling over you. Because the need to do something when people are dying trumps ALL artifice, for better or worse. > > “And they’d be wrong,” you’d be saying as people are walking over you, and you know, man, maybe you’d be right: they’d be wrong to do that. But instead of using your vast knowledge of logistics to help these poor, misguided people do SOMETHING, no matter how small, no matter how few lives there was a small, sporadic shot of saving, no matter how logistically improbable or unrealistic, you stuck to your well-trained guns and tried to communicate how the Art of Logistics dictates that we let these people die. > > So you may be right, but you’re not for real. Not when what we all saw happening on Wednesday is going on. That’s for REAL. There’s no art to people dying, and the faster they’re dying, the less time one has for artfully helping them. I simply refuse to believe that with all that wonderful knowledge, you can’t bring yourself to be part of the solution, only part of the brick wall. But he IS trying to be a part of the solution – the well thought out, carefully organized solution.(\*) You’re telling him that the emotionally driven gut-reaction solution takes precedence. (\* That should have been well thought out and organized and made ready **BEFORE the damn emergency**!!!) How wise it is to base our operational decisions in a crisis on an emotional urge to _“do something, anything!”_ we will never resolve to everyone’s satisfaction. I don’t know if I’m getting you right but you seem to be claiming that the public will either refuse to believe that there was a rational reason for the delay, or that even if they understand so they will refuse to accept it, and that _it doesn’t matter if they’re wrong_, because _“people are dying, do something, anything!”_. Now, it may well be indeed sound peacekeeping policy (or rather politics) for FEMA Director **Bricker** to allow a show of a **token** effort of immediate relief so that all those emotional people will at least feel someone is doing something. But then he’d get slammed as to “where the hell was the government” anyway, and you know it. * * * BTW – re: Charity Hospital and dehydration – a Hospital overrun with patients, probably not just to nominal capacity but half again or even twice over plus many of their relatives AND a couple of shits’ worth of stranded staff, with no resupply and _NO ELECTRICITY to run distillers and purifiers_ because the generator was out of commission (flooded, out of fuel, or burned out from overload), will run out of their residual supply of safe water pretty damn fast. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/250 "2005-09-04T00:10:56Z")
That’s “a couple of **shifts** worth of stranded staff”. Goodness gracious. And it has also crossed my mind that they may have had some reason to feel that the residual in-pipe water’s safety could have become compromised… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/251 "2005-09-04T00:32:46Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > We’re all Monday morning quarterbacking, to an extent. But I started quarterbacking on Wednesday, along with everybody else, and it was still a few more days until our team was even on the field. No, help was there on day one. The necessary ground support was held back because the NG wasn’t called in immediately to stop the violence. 2 days were lost and that’s a big deal when your emergency plan consists of an invitation to an empty stadium. Should the Major have anticipated the unrest? If he was on top of things I’d say yes. I plotted all the murders in my city for a year just for the hell of it so I know what to expect from each precint. Some are more violent (exponentially) than others. New Orleans is one of the most violent cities in the United States and only recently lost the title to Gary IN. I would hate to see a Superbowl there. This was not a single crisis but a series of them, each building on the other. The hurricane destroyed property, infrastructure and killed people. It was widespread and required a dispersal of assets. The flood that followed was an ongoing event that destroyed more property in a localized area. The riots prevented the transfer of material and resulted in a terciary level of deaths in the flooded area. It was a multi-day timeline of events, not a single event. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/252 "2005-09-04T00:40:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > That’s “a couple of **shifts** worth of stranded staff”. Goodness gracious. > > And it has also crossed my mind that they may have had some reason to feel that the residual in-pipe water’s safety could have become compromised… Shits/Shifts, either way you’re dehydrated. Yes, water pressure is key to sanitary water but for short periods of time it is more useful to drink standing water than dehydrate. Not sure if hospitals still keep iodine in stock or if it’s possible to properly dilute it. They were in survival mode. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/253 "2005-09-04T01:29:15Z")
I will add that there is good reason to fear un-pressurized water during a flood. Homes that were without water should avoid what comes out until the system has been properly re-pressurized and flushed. Underground water pipes are often damaged in floods by shifting earth and pose a real health hazard. It is currently suspected in [dysentery](http://www.nola.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/news-5/112578414068020.xml&storylist=hurricane) cases in New Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/254 "2005-09-04T01:50:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d think that, but no (or a qualified maybe). I’ve been in the business for 25 years so I’ll weigh in with what I know. I’ve dealt everything from 6-place Navaho’s to Russian SU-125’S (bigger than a C-5A). Same thing with trucks. If it can be lifted I’ve moved it. > > In any given metro area you are going to have a range of 25-50 trucks available on any given day. Advanced warning might increase that number. When I say available I’m talking about a 50 foot trailer with a single driver. There are many more trailers than drivers because of pre-stage float. If teams are required that number drops significantly. Anything farther than about 550 miles would require a team. I’m also assuming normal commerce continues. In the affected disaster area you will lose the freight companies (no freight to pick up) but gain the idled truckers. > > The companies that you mentioned have people that do exactly what you are talking about except they do it in a regional manner. All the major freight companies have regional hubs and logistics is handled on that level. It would be possible, and a damn good idea, for FEMA to put together a National Guard style team consisting of people in my field. They would be called up as needed. To be effective they would have to specifically look for people in all parts of the country (assuming you want to move freight from all parts of the country). It’s not just the skill of logistics, it’s the knowledge of the surrounding areas that is useful. > > All this potential planning would not have worked in this case. Flooding and riots prevented access to the areas needed. No sane company is going to send a driver and $150,000 worth of truck/trailer into either situation (insurance doesn’t cover riots and drivers are fond of breathing). I watched a trucker on the news (I recognized the company) who said he came out of Dallas days before but was held back by his company. I expect the same thing to happen in similar situations so the simplest solution would be to pre-stage freight just as the military would do in a war. From that point the National Guard units would move the material using military equipment made for the job. > > I have to tell you, from a logistics standpoint, this disaster has driven me nuts. I would like to take the Mayor and the Governor and clunk their heads together. FEMA was folded into Homeland Security so the coordination of assets should have improved. They were pre-staged for the effects of the hurricane yet there seems to be no method of transition when local efforts fail. This situation didn’t need the sophisticated planning of a military campaign but it needed SOMETHING. It required a small group of logistics planners and some communication devices. A map of the city is all that was needed to start plotting out the affected areas and coordinate the assets available. Thank you for a rational rebuttal of by theory. I don’t think, I actually suggested driving the trucks to the flood zone, I was asking about staging them as near as possible and therefore a lot closer than several states away. I believe a few miles north of the Rt10 bridge that stayed operational would have been a good and useful staging area. From this location, I would expect Helicopters to ferry the relief materials in. As you said, there are a lot of empty trailers every day that don’t get used. A large percentage of commercial truckers are owner operators now. > [@](#): > > The American Trucking Association, a lobbying group representing trucking interests, said in a May report that there are about 1.3 million long distance truckers in the U.S. according to [http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs021.htm](http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs021.htm) and [http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos246.htm](http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos246.htm) In Thousands: Truck drivers, heavy and tractor-trailer 721 Over 10 percent of all truck drivers and driver/sales workers were self-employed. Of these, a significant number were owner-operators who either served a variety of businesses independently or leased their services and trucks to a trucking company. **This means there are approximately 72,000 owner operators**. If 1% responded to a call for help that would at least be 720 Drivers with rigs. If the \*\*28,000 trucking companies \*\* could risk perhaps 280 additional truck teams, then I have my WAG of 1000 trucks. Trailers are available, I think you all will at least give me that. Now we need coordination: I will use FedEx as an example only because I have a friend that works in the Memphis Hubs data center. He has told me that FedEx has \*\*excess capacity \*\* for dispatching because of the needs for **Christmas capacity**. He said his center could probably handle about 100-200 extra trucks with about 6 hours lead time. Now I \*\*forgot \*\* to ask about where the other hubs are and how many. It sounds like FedEx may have been capable of handling the dispatching by themselves. I think UPS must have similar capacity, as they are the largest trucker in the world, but this is definitely a WAG. Could 100 trucks from 1000 different locations have put together a truckload of Food, water, Flashlight, batteries, blankets, Generators and etc on 12 hours notice? I think so, I have seen NYC area put together 80 trucks in donations in 24 hours. This was for a Florida Hurricane, I think Andrew. As far as Corporation not risking there assets: MONTGOMERY, Ala. (Aug. 28, 2005) – While Gulf Coast residents brace for the arrival of Hurricane Katrina, \*\*Anheuser-Busch \*\* Cos. Inc. is preparing to supply emergency drinking water immediately after the storm. [http://www.anheuser-busch.com/news/Katrina082905.htm](http://www.anheuser-busch.com/news/Katrina082905.htm) Sounds like they were more prepared than FEMA. 😉 **Now the hardest part. Where do we get the Helicopter from?** Okay, I’m stumped on this one. Out of my league and guessing that a huge number of Navy, Marine & Army Helicopters are deployed overseas. \*\*Who can help me \*\* with rough locations of domestic helicopters that may have been available if notice went out quicker? ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/255 "2005-09-04T01:54:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > To answer your first question, the city would have had access to both metro buses and school buses. A metro bus will seat about 50 people while a school bus will accommodate 72 (3 on a bench seat). Not only would this have been practical it would have [saved the school buses](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015). I count over 200 buses in the picture so with just the school buses they could have moved close to 50,000 people in about 3 trips. I imagine they have more buses than the picture shows and just as many metro buses which would negate the need for round trips.` Point taken - it appears that New Orleans probably had access to a sufficient number of buses. However, having access to those buses and ramping up an evacuation effort using those buses to get 50 to 100 thousand people out of New Orleans are two different things - such an evacuation plan would be difficult under the best of circumstances. I read where to effectively evacuate New Orleans it would take between 48 to 72 hours. Having a plan (and periodically practicing such a plan) would have needed to take place well in advance of such an actual scenario. Also, while it’s one thing to have a plan to evacuate people using buses, you also need a plan on what to do with people once you evacuate them. This involves a plan that coordinates with other plans involving the metopolitan area and state (not to mention the federal government). I should point out that I am in no way excusing what happened; but rather pointing out the difficulties inherent in planning such an evacuation scenario (logistically, but more imporantly, from a command, communication, and control perspective). One may have access to sufficient resources; however, without effective CCC to ramp up and oversee operations to utilize those resources, then it’s a moot point. > [@](#): > > When I say “the only logical plan” I’m talking about the best use of money spent (which is the limiting factor in any operation). Helicopters cost over $750/hr to operate (for a nice executive model). They don’t haul that many people and consume a tremendous amount of fuel. Fuel is a key factor in an evacuation plan. Helicopters are also very limited in moderate weather conditions (imagine pre-hurricane winds of 25-50 mph). Buses are cheap to operate especially when you already own them. Rental for a 50 passenger bus (with toilet) will run in the $600-$800 range for 8 hrs of use but again, the city already controls them. I don’t know who’s picking up the tab for the helicopters but it is WAY more expensive than what buses would have cost. Concur - makes sense when you put it that way… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/256 "2005-09-04T02:00:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > …snip… > One thing that struck me as odd was a statement that the hospital employees were suffering from dehydration. They were in a multi-story building full of water. I don’t understand that at all. Okay, please forgive my sarcasms , I think I misunderstood you. By BIL & SIL are safe in Florida now. He spent the first 2 days of the flood wading over to Charity and then back to Tulane to be with my SIL. He could not do the wade the after that and stayed at Tulane. It was Tulane they where air lifted out of Friday Morning around 2am arriving in Lafayette around 3am. The Generator was apparently fine, no one was able to get fuel to them after it ran out at either hospital. They kept respirator patients going by constant non-stop hand respiration. (Good god that is amazing, they kept these patients alive for 2 straight days by hand) The never ran out of water but they did run low and ran low on food. Charity was worse off. ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/257 "2005-09-04T02:12:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I have to tell you, from a logistics standpoint, this disaster has driven me nuts. I would like to take the Mayor and the Governor and clunk their heads together. FEMA was folded into Homeland Security so the coordination of assets should have improved. They were pre-staged for the effects of the hurricane yet there seems to be no method of transition when local efforts fail. This situation didn’t need the sophisticated planning of a military campaign but it needed SOMETHING. It required a small group of logistics planners and some communication devices. A map of the city is all that was needed to start plotting out the affected areas and coordinate the assets available. From a logistics perspective, it’s also driving me nuts. I would like to clunk the heads, of the mayor, governor, head of FEMA, DHS, and select number of other people. I agree, the situation didn’t need sophisticated military planning, but some kind of plan should have been in place. Every major city (and state) should have a cadre of logistics planners to prepare for severe scenarios such as Katrina (DHS and/or FEMA as well). In addition, serious attention should have been placed on practicing for such a scenario - both from a logistical and CCC - command, communications, and control - perspective. Constant practice would have highlighted where the kinks in the operation were (and could be ironed out before having to actually implement such a plan). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/258 "2005-09-04T02:16:37Z")
[QUOTE=jrfranchi] They kept respirator patients going by constant non-stop hand respiration. (Good god that is amazing, they kept these patients alive for 2 straight days by hand) [QUOTE] OH MY GOD. That is no easy task to go through for an hour. 2 days… WOW! The medical people in those 2 hospitals must be exhausted beyond reason. I remember a program involving iron lungs during a power outage. They had to pump the machines by hands. I think it was done in 15 minute shifts. Brutal. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/259 "2005-09-04T02:29:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@jrfranchi](#): > > > > They kept respirator patients going by constant non-stop hand respiration. (Good god that is amazing, they kept these patients alive for 2 straight days by hand) > > OH MY GOD. That is no easy task to go through for an hour. 2 days… WOW! The medical people in those 2 hospitals must be exhausted beyond reason. > > I remember a program involving iron lungs during a power outage. They had to pump the machines by hands. I think it was done in 15 minute shifts. Brutal. I spoke to my SIL for about 20 minutes today. She could not say enough about the nurses and the rest of the staff. To get some patients to the makeshift Helo pads, 8 doctors & nurses lifted a gurney up several flights of stairs. Stopping at each landing to make sure they weren’t losing the patient. I don’t have the total numbers but they rescued all but 2 critical patients. On Wednesday a desperate man actually swam up to the hospital to beg for milk for his 6 month old baby. The hospital had none left to give him. She mentioned that they (Tulane had armed guards and they never had trouble with Looters as the ground floor was under water by that time. She saw Coast Guard and Forestry/ Games commission service from day 1. (She did not say so, but she stayed on as a volunteer to help in any way possible, even though she has her doctorate in Medical Biology and nothing related to patients) My BIL is a Doctor and he stayed on rather than leave. He went beyond the Hippocratic oath by helping 2 hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/260 "2005-09-04T02:51:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So before you can call FedEx and say, “Hey, lend us 1000 trucks,” you have to figure out how to accept donated services without possibility of future contract ratification. What’s the answer to that? > [@Bricker](#): > > If you don’t figure it out, then you’re asking someone, somewhere, to break the law and personally assume the responsibility for illegally committing equipment. Sorry I’m stepping in a little late, but they apparently wouldn’t have had to “ask” FedEx, or anyone else for that mater, for “donated” equipment, nor would they be “illegally committing equipment,” according to “The Mayor’s mandatory evacuation order, issued through the Civil District Court for the Parish of Orleans, [which, in part,] declares:” > [@](#): > > 1. In order to effectuate the mandatory evacuation, at the direction of the Mayor, the Chief Administrative Officer, the Director of Homeland Security for the City of New Orleans or any member of the New Orleans Police Department, **the City may commandeer any private property, including, but not limited to** , buildings that may be designated as refuges of last resort and **vehicles that may be used to transport people out the area**. So the phone call to FedEx could’ve actually gone, "“Hey, GIVE us 1000 trucks,” and they would’ve had to, by legal order. [http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/08/mayor-orders-new-orleans-evacuated.php](http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/08/mayor-orders-new-orleans-evacuated.php) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=14)