# Q: How many poor, black Katrina victims does it take to equal one rich 9/11 victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749 "2005-09-02T16:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/41 "2005-09-02T17:20:55Z")
The answer is 42. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/42 "2005-09-02T17:21:20Z")
OK. I stand corrected. This is shaping up to be a debate, so I’m moving it back. \*\* Moderator Mode \*\* **Pit** -like remarks to this point get a pass, but everyone will tone down their personal venom when this shows up back in **Greate Debates**. If you have to be nasty, open your own thread back in the **Pit**. \*\* /Moderator Mode \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/43 "2005-09-02T17:25:53Z")
No, I don’t have hard numbers for you, but I defy you to look at the footage of the crowd outside the superdome and pick out more than half a dozen white people. And I’d be willing to bet that when the hard numbers come in, 1% will be **generous**. Ah, I see: it’s all just a _coincidence_. :rolleyes: Well, that explains everything, doesn’t it? Nothing to see here, move along. People live, people die. Big deal. I guess Intelligent Coincidence is the logical outgrowth of Intelligent Design. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/44 "2005-09-02T17:31:41Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Bzzzt! I’ve **been** the victim of a massive hurricane. I know exactly what it’s like. How about you? Thankfully, I haven’t been a victim of a massive hurricane. But two points: 1. Being a victim of a natural disaster does not give you any moral authority, nor does it give your arguments any additional weight 2. You were not a victim of _this_ hurricane, so you don’t know what _this_ one is like. > [@Sequent](#): > > Yes, I’ll leave when I’m damn good and ready. I’m just thankful that I _can_. You aren’t the only one. > [@Sequent](#): > > Tell you what: when they stop _trying_ and start helping, I’ll stop projecting. So those people being lifted off of their rooftops and bused to the Astrodome are all figments of my imagination? Keep blaming boogeymen and playing the race card if it helps you deal with this tragedy. Just don’t expect me or anybody else to join you in your fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/45 "2005-09-02T17:32:24Z")
Helicopters have plucked THOUSANDS of standed people (of all colors) off of rooftops non-stop since TUESDAY, so I’m not buying any type of racism allegations from any schmuck, from the NAACP spokesperson on down to an OP on the SDMB. I do acknowledge that FEMA was not up to this task and slow to respond in some aspects, but I seriously doubt that any of their actions (or inactions) are race motivated…that’s just plain crazy talk. Any person who has even taken a basic first-aid/CPR course is taught to make sure that the surrounding area is safe for the rescuer to help the rescuee. If somebody constantly expect rescuers (doctors, police, FEMA workers, Coast Guard, and the National Guard) to operate outside of their scope and risk their own lives unnecessarily, then they are idiots. The number of people who need to be saved is overwelming, and it will take time to address every citizen’s urgent needs spread out many square miles. They will catch up eventually, but unfortunately that’s not good enough for some people who are dying or already dead. That is a tragedy. And comparing Biloxi to New Orleans at this time is pointless. They are suffering different types of tragedies caused by the same event. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/46 "2005-09-02T17:32:18Z")
The right wing may get “default” blame because they practically own the government, but I don’t see any Democrats standing up–except the mayor. I see one big political machine with the same message churning out of every mouth. Right wing, left wing–this is an American tragedy. And the Federal government has circled the wagons in a remarkable fashion. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/47 "2005-09-02T17:37:24Z")
\*\*I am not adding much new. \*\* I will pit the response, and I have. It is a dismal week and FEMA will be called in for endless congressional hearings when this is done and their incompetence will be politicized. **But, it is not a racist issue** ; it is a dismal failure, pure and simple. The poorest are those most in need of help, so it ends up being largely poor blacks. \*As far as the numbers of people trapped: \* The range was 40,000 to 100,000 by all the reports I saw. Definitely not 99% black but overwhelming black would be fair to say. FEMA chief was making excuses they couldn’t get people into New Orleans, but they could at very least have had everything staged to move in. The Navy could have steamed out of Norfolk quicker. (My Carrier once left port on 1 days notice) The Army and National Guard could have been mobilized to start moving out far sooner. A call could have went out from the President to the Teamster to organize a massive truck relief. They could quickly organize food & water collection and gotten permission for right of ways to the gulf. Heck, they would have enjoyed doing it. Just tell them sleep restrictions and speed limits are not in effect. (If this sounds farfetched, please remember Rudy G. put out word to the **Steal Workers Union** that they could use help, the union turned out in overwhelming numbers, borrowed equipment and worked 24x7 for weeks without pay at ground zero.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/48 "2005-09-02T17:39:42Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Bzzzt! I’ve **been** the victim of a massive hurricane. I know exactly what it’s like. How about you? Nobody alive today was in Galveston in 1900, so I don’t think a lot of Americans can relate to what’s going on down there right now. > [@Sequent](#): > > No, I don’t have hard numbers for you, but I defy you to look at the footage of the crowd outside the superdome and pick out more than half a dozen white people. And I’d be willing to bet that when the hard numbers come in, 1% will be **generous**. About 33% of New Orleans is non-black, so I think the odds are against you here. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/49 "2005-09-02T17:43:28Z")
We’re not talking about all of Louisiana, or all of New Orleans. We’re talking about a large section of dowtown New Orleans, primarily the 9th ward, which is much more than 67% black. And of those, we’re talking about the people who either chose not to leave or could not leave. All that aside, the footage speaks for itself. Anyone who looks at the crowd outside the Superdome and concludes that it’s any kind of representative slice of America has lost it. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/50 "2005-09-02T17:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Answer: Because the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. > > If you’ve already decided to see racism at work, there’s no way you can be convinced otherwise. Show me National Guardsmen passing out supplies only to white people and we can call it racist. Show me that a city with virtually no infrastructure left has logistical problems, and I will be unsurprised. I expected to hear this. My belief that racism exists, in varying degrees and in varying manifestations throughout American society, is much like how I hold my faith. If you don’t believe in a higher power, I can’t prove it to you. I can look around me and see evidence of God’s work, but I have yet to happen upon concrete evidence that makes this point for all of those who don’t believe He exists. My point was not that the National Guard is racist. My point was that the value on the lives of the poor and African Americans is considered less than the value placed on affluent and middle-class Whites. This would explain the lack of preparedness for the citizens of inner-city New Orleans. It would explain why no plan existed to evacuate people without cars and without income (government checks come on the first of the month). Even if people had money in hand, the airport and Greyhound stopped services out of New Orleans _before_ the mandatory evacuation order. This didn’t seem to create a problem for anyone in leadership, because again, I argue, the people affected by this are not valued as much as those who have cars, who have income, who are somehow perceived as being in charge of their lives. These factors are all tied closely to race and SES in inner-city New Orleans. So we can agree not to split hairs and not call it “racism.” But can we agree that the lives of the citizens of inner-city New Orleans are not valued as highly as middle-class and affluent Whites? I already presented some opinions about situations that demonstrate this; you can certainly argue that the role of “racism,” “assigning higher value to the lives of Whites,” whatever, varies somewhat. I never attributed all of these issues to racism. But I believe it’s there, to some degree. > [@](#): > > Why don’t we also start with the hypothesis that Bush caused the hurricane because of his racist weather controlling machine, and try to find evidence to disprove that thesis? **Ravenman…** that’s just stupid. > [@](#): > > The situation is bad enough—please don’t drag imaginary racism into it to make things worse than they are (yes, of course I know racism is a problem in this country—hell, in every country—but this situation just does not fit the bill). **Eve,** I’ve agreed with a majority of your posts on this issue. But… if you believe racism is a problem in this country - how is this situation exempt from such an analysis? Again, we can disagree on the extent of racism, but can we really say that racism has absolutely no role in how the preparation, coverage, evacuation, and governmental response has gone? > [@](#): > > Even on the StraightDope, a place I’d like to think of as being enlightened, people are blaming the victims. They are blaming them for living in such a low-lying locale. They are blaming them for not evacuating. exactly, **monstro**. I’ve never been to the New Orleans public housing projects. But I have been in those in Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, and in New York City. If they’re anything like those places, I’m certain people would rather live elsewhere. But it isn’t as if it’s possible for everyone to drop everything and go. I saw the same story on the NBC Nightly News about the White couples (and their dogs) and again, it reconfirmed my belief that many people in this country see their plight as being more sympathetic than those of the random Black faces that are just viewed for seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/51 "2005-09-02T17:45:05Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > thanks **Sequent** for this thread. I think my thread here in the pit is heading in this direction. > > **tomndebb** - I don’t think it’s a case of “we hate them darkies!” but more of how this nation values the lives of some citizens more than others. This has been beaten to death, but it’s amazing to me that in the United States, one lone jackass firing at a rescue chopper can suspend rescue efforts for thousands of people. I just can’t imagine a similar situation taking place in a predominantly White and/or affluent community. The police SWAT team would likely be on the spot instantly to dispatch the shooter. But this is unfair. Yeah, if a lone nut was shooting at a helicopter IN AN UNDESTROYED CITY, then the SWAT team would be all over it. Wouldn’t matter if it was a majority black or majority white city. However, New Orleans is flattened. Where’s the SWAT team? The police stations are under 20 feet of water. The roads are under 20 feet of water. The SWAT team is off rescuing people. The normal expectations don’t apply. > [@](#): > > Is it even imaginable that in any jurisdiction in America, people could go five days without food or water, and actually be told by leaders that they should loot and do what they need to do to survive? This is in the same nation that sends resources and rescue teams to save a little White girl in a well, or mobilizes thousands of people to search for a missing White bride-to-be, or devotes incredible media resources to coverage of a missing White teenager in Aruba. Again, completely unfair. Yeah, one person in trouble and we can mobilize immense resources to help them. That’s because we have an immense logistical base to mobilize. One kid lost in the forest, and we can send dozens of helicopters with round-the-clock news coverage and hundreds of searchers, all for one lost white kid. Now imagine that instead of one lost white kid we’ve got 10,000 lost white kids. Now how much effort is going to be expended on any one particular lost white kid? You aren’t seeing a media circus about one particular lost black kid because the disaster itself is so huge that there are thousands of lost kids, black and white. It isn’t a media circus because in this case the full and undivided attention of the national media is appropriate and neccesary, rather than out of proportion like it is when one kid is lost down a well. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/52 "2005-09-02T17:46:37Z")
I don’t for a second think that the rescue FUBAR is race motivated . But there is a racial aspect in that the poor were disproportionately affected, the poor were the least capable of leaving and the poor are mostly black. Why is that? To me the biggest screw-up was not providing a way for folks with extremely limited means to evacuate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/53 "2005-09-02T17:50:30Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > **Ravenman…** that’s just stupid. So is claiming that some event is racist unless others can disprove it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/54 "2005-09-02T17:52:11Z")
Did they have whites-only buses evacuating people, or whites-only lanes for traffic? If they didn’t, then how do you explain that the “only” refugees are black? Can you point to any action by any person as benefiting whites to the detriment of blacks? This disaster is nothing like 9/11. Outside of the immediate area, out of which one could walk, the infrastructure of the city was still in place. The city itself mounted the initial effort to lock down security and get people out of there. They weren’t waiting for the feds to bail them out, Giuliani was right there at ground zero coordinating the whole thing. If you don’t mind my saying, it isn’t Bush’s job to make sure evacuation plans are sufficient, that’s a local job, so we should be looking right at the mayor, is he a racist too? Blame his ass for not caring about the lives of black people. He’s the one who ordered the “mandatory” evacuation without making resources available for them to get out. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/55 "2005-09-02T17:53:53Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > Helicopters have plucked THOUSANDS of standed people (of all colors) off of rooftops non-stop since TUESDAY, so I’m not buying any type of racism allegations from any schmuck, from the NAACP spokesperson on down to an OP on the SDMB. You think I’m talking about Jim Crow? Racism is insidious: just because we don’t have signs saying “white refugees only” doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. I don’t think Bush or most of these people are racists in the Jim Crow sense, but why do you think they have to be in order for racism to be a huge factor here? Of course the rescuers aren’t profiling the victims; of course Bush isn’t secretly saying “screw them darkies.” When the system is racist, the people in it don’t have to be. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/56 "2005-09-02T17:55:35Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > A: we’re still counting. > > The Constitution tells us one black man is 3/5 of a white man, so if you estimate 40,000 refugees in New Orleans (99% of whom are black), we have roughly the equivalent of 24,000 white refugees. The Constitution doesn’t draw distinctions between average whites and rich whites, but apparently the government does. **Sequent** , I took (mild) issue with this part of your rant [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333022). Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/57 "2005-09-02T17:56:21Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > The media (from what I’ve seen so far) has been focusing on how bad things are, and not showing what progress has started. I say it’s time for the media to get off it’s collective ass, and start showing what support is finally arriving. Both for the comfort of the victims that help actually _is_ getting there, and to show the rest of the country that yeah, we can actually respond to this–even if it takes time. > > Tripler > Fucking media. If it weren’t for the media, who knows how long it would have taken aid to get to the convention center? FEMA didn’t get off its butt until the outrage forced its hand, without the media there would be no outrage. If the disaster handling hadn’t been so disastrous, that would have been the story. But the relief has been completely botched- so don’t blame the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/58 "2005-09-02T17:56:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Did they have whites-only buses evacuating people, or whites-only lanes for traffic? If they didn’t, then how do you explain that the “only” refugees are black? Can you point to any action by any person as benefiting whites to the detriment of blacks? Unbelievable. So I guess you think when the separate water fountains disappeared in the south that racism just evaporated? _Brown vs. Board of Education_, and the Supreme Court just magically wiped it away? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/59 "2005-09-02T18:01:40Z")
Then please explain how racists caused black folks to stay in town and let white folks leave. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/60 "2005-09-02T18:02:36Z")
You guys do know that racism comes in more forms than “Those Black people suck. Let’s ruin their lives!”, right? Race is a part of who lives where, which is a part of who is poor and who is not, which is a part of who owns a car and who doesn’t, which is a part of who got out of the path of a hurricane and who didn’t. Race is a part of what gets shown on television, which is a part of how people percieve an event, which is a part of how people view the politicians involved in that event, which is a part of how polticians react to an event. It’s not about individuals. It’s about broken systems- or systems that are more broken for one portion of the population than for another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=4)