# Q: How many poor, black Katrina victims does it take to equal one rich 9/11 victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749 "2005-09-02T16:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/61 "2005-09-02T18:03:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And while we’re are doing all this finger-pointing, name-calling, and eye-rolling, people are suffering and dying. I know, ain’t it something? People rather devote two separate threads griping meaninglessly about a handful of shooters and looters, rather than talking about how to help the thousands of people who are suffering and dying right now. It pains me. > [@](#): > > I watched Dateline yesterday and I couldn’t help noticing something. They spent a significant amount of time panning the camera on black victims, showing us their misery and wretchedness. But their “close-up” stories were on middle-class white people (although the woman who lost her two-year-old was a very light-skinned black woman, they highlighted the fact that she was from a “middle class” neighborhood). I noticed the exact same thing. I saw endless shots of black people walking in desperation toward unknown destinations or standing in front of the Thunderdome (as you call it), but few were stopped and interviewed for longer than 10 seconds, it seems. They came across as faceless, nameless strangers that no one could care about; a dime a dozen, so to speak. When the camera is shifted to white people, though, suddenly we are given an up close and personal view of their lives. We are told about their struggles to stay alive, their worries, their fears. We show them tearfully calling loved ones on cellphones borrowed from journalists. We see them with their pets. We see where they are living. We see them being human and are compelled to care about them. To me, you’d have to be blind and deaf not to see the racial implications behind the newscoverage of this disaster. I appreciate the thread that **pencilpusher** started as well as this one. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/62 "2005-09-02T18:04:01Z")
**Lemur866** - sure, there isn’t a 1:1 comparison to be made with all of the events mentioned. But I’ve lived in this country for 21 years, and if I know one thing about America, it’s that if we want something done, we do it. We put a man on the moon in ten years. We fixed a space ship and brought it back to Earth from the Moon… you get what I’m saying? If the will is there, it can get done in America. This is the same nation where we have built schools, small cities WHILE fighting insurgents in days halfway across the world. I’m thinking if the city, state, and feds are sitting in the control room, they can get the shooters under control in short order. [Side note: I personally think shooting at a chopper is insane… is it possible that some of the shooters were trying to get the attention of the chopper?] > [@](#): > > Yeah, one person in trouble and we can mobilize immense resources to help them. That’s because we have an immense logistical base to mobilize. One kid lost in the forest, and we can send dozens of helicopters with round-the-clock news coverage and hundreds of searchers, all for one lost white kid. Now imagine that instead of one lost white kid we’ve got 10,000 lost white kids. Well, we do. There are thousands of missing kids, but only some catch the attention of the national media and the sympathy of the nation. There was a report (at the end) of the NBC Nightly News about a month ago about a missing Black woman - college student, attractive, active in her community, by all accounts a wonderful human being - but her family couldn’t get the media to cover her story. (That was the point of the story - she had been missing for many weeks by the time this slug aired.) They were middle class, not poor. The wicked beauty of racism - or whatever you want to call it - is that it is exceedingly difficult to conclusively prove, and it is often conflated with other factors. I hope that the threshold for perceiving inequity and the lack of value placed on people of color’s lives is considerably lower than the James Byrd case. Sensible people agree that his murder was racially motivated (and some people don’t!), but a violent, obvious crime is not the only manifestation of this. ---
**Author:** ![Stringer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Stringer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/63 "2005-09-02T18:06:10Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > We’re not talking about all of Louisiana, or all of New Orleans. We’re talking about a large section of dowtown New Orleans, primarily the 9th ward, which is much more than 67% black. And of those, we’re talking about the people who either chose not to leave or could not leave. All that aside, the footage speaks for itself. Anyone who looks at the crowd outside the Superdome and concludes that it’s any kind of representative slice of America has lost it. This is a qualification then, since your original post says: > [@Sequent](#): > > 40,000 refugees in New Orleans (99% of whom are black) So we’re _just_ talking about the Superdome refugees then? ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/64 "2005-09-02T18:13:14Z")
> [@micahjn](#): > > So we’re _just_ talking about the Superdome refugees then? Correct: it’s a qualification to my original statement. I was referring to primarily the crowds at the Superdome and the Convention Center. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/65 "2005-09-02T18:14:33Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > But I’ve lived in this country for 21 years, and if I know one thing about America, it’s that if we want something done, we do it. We put a man on the moon in ten years. We fixed a space ship and brought it back to Earth from the Moon… you get what I’m saying? If the will is there, it can get done in America. That’s such a good point; I can’t think of a more stark illustration. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/66 "2005-09-02T18:16:05Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You aren’t seeing a media circus about one particular lost black kid because the disaster itself is so huge that there are thousands of lost kids, black and white. It isn’t a media circus because in this case the full and undivided attention of the national media is appropriate and neccesary, rather than out of proportion like it is when one kid is lost down a well. Did you read **monstro’s** post on the Dateline special? If the majority of people affected by this are black, then where are they on the screen? If the majority of people who got out are white, then why is that? Is it racist, well yes and no. That is no one sat down and said let’s keep the blacks in this part of town, and leave them when the hurricane happened. However that was exactly what happened. Why Segregation…not today, not 5 years ago, but generations ago and this is the price of that. What we’re witnessing now, is the final chapter of New Orleans, racism and segregation. The blacks live in the inner city, and rely on public transportation, which was shut off. The whites didn’t rely on public transportation and had access to the highways and other exit points. If the New Orleans wasn’t segregated you wouldn’t be seeing this. There would be a mix of people, it’s not. Did the whites, that were able to get out, plan on that? No, but they benefited just that same and no that doesn’t make them racists. I’m not from New Orleans, I don’t know the dynamics of housing, etc., so I may be wrong, but history and numbers don’t lie. This is the result of past racism, that was never corrected. The blacks live here and the whites live there. That’s the racism, that’s being played out now. I don’t have to be racist to benefit, from a previous racist society, I just don’t have to be a member of the minority group that’s been separated and still are. Then there’s the racism of assuming that your viewers won’t “relate” to the plight of black people and turn the channel…so you don’t show them, except looting… That’s something people will watch. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/67 "2005-09-02T18:18:47Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Race is a part of who lives where, which is a part of who is poor and who is not, which is a part of who owns a car and who doesn’t, which is a part of who got out of the path of a hurricane and who didn’t. > > It’s not about individuals. It’s about broken systems- or systems that are more broken for one portion of the population than for another. This is true, but when you blame it on “racism” it suggests to me that there is an active effort to repress. An active effort to deny opportunity, or services, or aid to people. You can’t possibly think that our OP, who is asking how many black lives = one white life is bemoaning the fact that blacks in NO were generally poorer than whites. The fact that all these folks lacked resources to get out is a problem that the mayor should have known about. Sequent, why aren’t you bringing the hammer down on his racist ass? He hightailed it out of town saying “every man for himself” leaving thousands of blacks in the crosshairs. White folks could get out, they had more cars and more resources to leave. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/68 "2005-09-02T18:20:15Z")
Of course all those white doctors, policemen, fireman, homeowners near the Levee break and etc. were left to fend for themselves also. Damn the governments hatred of rescue workers and middle class homeowners. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/69 "2005-09-02T18:35:22Z")
The race issue is starting to become visible in the national dialogue on Katrina. It’s not quite in the open – everyone is shying away at the last minute – but the thought of it is there: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050902/ap\_on\_go\_co/katrina\_black\_lawmakers](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050902/ap_on_go_co/katrina_black_lawmakers) ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/70 "2005-09-02T18:37:07Z")
I must have missed it, but I guess the mandatory evacuation order only applied to white residents? They probably encouraged blacks to stay at home, the racists! And I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t think I’ve seen a single white person being air-lifted into a rescue helicopter. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/71 "2005-09-02T18:37:48Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Sequent, why aren’t you bringing the hammer down on his racist ass? He hightailed it out of town saying “every man for himself” leaving thousands of blacks in the crosshairs. White folks could get out, they had more cars and more resources to leave. So many ass-hammers, so little time. The mayor certainly deserves his share of the blame, and I’m sure he’ll hear about it in due course. But I do credit the mayor with having the courage to be the first to not keep blurting out the company line. All politicians are self-preserving creatures; he knew how many enemies he was going to make by saying what he did. Still, I’m hearing a lot of enmity towards him spoken by the people being interviewed, particularly the ones who followed his intstructions to go to the dome. So I’m sure that will play out. As I said in the OP, I would _love_ to blame Bush for this. I mean I’d really love it. I’ve got others I’d love to blame, too. But I can’t, not rationally. I simply cannot believe he intended anything other than the best. I simply can’t believe that about any of our politicians. Nor that they are active racists. The racism I’m talking about didn’t start on Monday morning…it started a long time ago. It’s beyond the blame of any one person, because it has been worked into the system. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/72 "2005-09-02T18:59:49Z")
**Sequent** , give an example of a comparable disaster in the US which you believe was delt with reasonably. Then tell us how Katrina could of or should of been handled differently. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/73 "2005-09-02T19:06:03Z")
Making a race issue out of this is classless and misguided, and verges on insulting the overall tragedy of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/74 "2005-09-02T19:08:09Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > The Constitution tells us one black man is 3/5 of a white man, so if you estimate 40,000 refugees in New Orleans (99% of whom are black), we have roughly the equivalent of 24,000 white refugees. The Constitution doesn’t draw distinctions between average whites and rich whites, but apparently the government does. > . I agree with the sentiment of your OP, but if you’re concerned about being ashamed to be American, you could refrain from making such misleading and incorrect statements as this. There is nothing, I repeat _nothing_, in the Constitution which supports this notion on a legal basis, today. The Constitution is the ideal we are striving and have yet to achieve fully, not the basis for racism. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/75 "2005-09-02T19:08:37Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > **Sequent** , give an example of a comparable disaster in the US which you believe was delt with reasonably. Then tell us how Katrina could of or should of been handled differently. OK, one I already mentioned: Hurricane Hugo. I’ll also mention Andrew. Both hurricanes, both of comparable strength. President Bush Sr. caught flack over both, so I’m not saying the response was perfect, but it was reasonable–certainly compared to this. How it should have been handled differently? Simple: [this](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html) should have happened **Wednesday**. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/76 "2005-09-02T19:09:23Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > But I’m not down there. I’m not involved in the recovery. But I will say that I take the media with a grain of salt, thinking that they’re focusing solely on the devastation for ratings, effect, “journalistic view”, whatever. In the 24 hours I’ve been watching the news, I have _yet_ to see any shots of relief coming in, any pictures or videos of the military mobilizing to help (despite the fact one of my sister squadrons is mounting up to deploy to Keesler AFB to help around there), any Red Cross offices setting up, nothing. It’s all about how bad things still are. > > The media (from what I’ve seen so far) has been focusing on how bad things are, and not showing what progress has started. I say it’s time for the media to get off it’s collective ass, and start showing what support is finally arriving. Both for the comfort of the victims that help actually _is_ getting there, and to show the rest of the country that yeah, we can actually respond to this–even if it takes time. For what it’s worth, I don’t have cable, just XM. That said, I do listen to the cable channels audio feed on XM and earlier today on Fox they were showing the convoys coming into the area. The thing is, while most of the time I will fault the media for being too doom and gloom, I think it has been badly needed this time. If FEMA and DHS have no idea what’s going on but the media (and thus the nation) do, then this is very important. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/77 "2005-09-02T19:13:23Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > The racism I’m talking about didn’t start on Monday morning…it started a long time ago. It’s beyond the blame of any one person, because it has been worked into the system. This, I can accept. Whether you attribute it to racism or some other factors, there is undeniably a difference in economic opportunity between racial groups. That is certainly the cause of the disparity in evacuation rates. I just feel that claiming it’s proof that black lives are worth less than white lives is just too much. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/78 "2005-09-02T19:14:24Z")
Since this is (currently) in great Debates, I’ll approach it as such. Pardons if someone else has already raised the same point among all the virol above. Perhaps the race of the victims here is a symptom rather than a cause? I mean, looking at things from a race-free POV: 1. The people of New Orleans were told to evacuate before Katrina made landfall. 2. People who were able to, did so. 3. People who were _not_ able to – such as the poor, the elderly, and/or the infirm – were left to stick behind and try to ride out the storm. 4. Ergo, the majority of the victims we’re seeing now are folks from the categories listed in #3 above. Anyone have a racial breakdown of the New Orleans population by income, age, and/or degree of infirminininininity? That ought to shed some light on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/79 "2005-09-02T19:30:05Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Since this is (currently) in great Debates, I’ll approach it as such. Pardons if someone else has already raised the same point among all the virol above. > > Perhaps the race of the victims here is a symptom rather than a cause? I mean, looking at things from a race-free POV: > > 1. The people of New Orleans were told to evacuate before Katrina made landfall. > 2. People who were able to, did so. > 3. People who were _not_ able to – such as the poor, the elderly, and/or the infirm – were left to stick behind and try to ride out the storm. > 4. Ergo, the majority of the victims we’re seeing now are folks from the categories listed in #3 above. > > Anyone have a racial breakdown of the New Orleans population by income, age, and/or degree of infirminininininity? That ought to shed some light on the topic. Ah, a reasonable question suitable to debunk this ridiculous assertion. Too bad we’ll never really be able to be sure who was poor and in what proportion to any certainty. I can assure you, though, that it is 99% certain that the ratio is not 99-1 black-white. I would be willing to say 70-30, maybe even 80-20, but that’s thousands of white people left behind. If they’re there I think the cries of racism can be debunked. After all, if it were racist why would Whitey leave his own? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/80 "2005-09-02T19:32:57Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I must have missed it, but I guess the mandatory evacuation order only applied to white residents? They probably encouraged blacks to stay at home, the racists! > > And I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t think I’ve seen a single white person being air-lifted into a rescue helicopter. I’m (mostly) on the side that says that racism was not the cause of the disaster we are seeing (although **Monstro** made some good points about the way race figures into the overall picture). However, I have seen you participate in enough threads that have mentioned the particulars that it appears, here, that you are either failing to actually read the information presented or you are deliberately pretending to be ignorant. Specifically, New Orleans rivals NYC in the percent of it citizens who do not have cars. At the same time that the evacuation order was given, the trolley system was shut down to avoid electric line issues, Greyhound suspended service to the city, Amtrak made no special provisions to provide more than their six or seven cars a day through the city. So first we announce that everyone is ordered to leave, then we do nothing to provide the majority of residents with a means to leave (short of walking through torrential rains and the winds generated by a Category 4 hurricane) and you want to pretend that the evacuation order was completely fair? I do not claim that it was racist–poor whites with no cars sufferd the same fate–but your comment demonstrates willful ignorance. I have also seen numerous photos of whites being picked up by helicopter, so I suspect that your comment is, at best, disingenuous, but the point to note regarding New Orleans is that the major flooding is in primarily black parts of the city, so there would tend to be fewer whites lifted out. I realize that you were trying to make a point that some help has been offered to blacks, but you are doing it in a particularly snide and ill-informed manner [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=5)