# Q: How many poor, black Katrina victims does it take to equal one rich 9/11 victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749 "2005-09-02T16:17:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/81 "2005-09-02T19:35:56Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > How it should have been handled differently? Simple: [this](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html) should have happened **Wednesday**. Even Bush says, “The results are not acceptable.” The president said he is “satisfied” with the federal government’s response to the Katrina disaster, although there is not “enough security in New Orleans yet.” Government’s response: 1,000 National Guard troops (when were they deployed?) 10,000 people evacuated, 50,000 remaining ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/82 "2005-09-02T19:38:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m (mostly) on the side that says that racism was not the cause of the disaster we are seeing (although **Monstro** made some good points about the way race figures into the overall picture). > > However, I have seen you participate in enough threads that have mentioned the particulars that it appears, here, that you are either failing to actually read the information presented or you are deliberately pretending to be ignorant. > > Specifically, New Orleans rivals NYC in the percent of it citizens who do not have cars. At the same time that the evacuation order was given, the trolley system was shut down to avoid electric line issues, Greyhound suspended service to the city, Amtrak made no special provisions to provide more than their six or seven cars a day through the city. So first we announce that everyone is ordered to leave, then we do nothing to provide the majority of residents with a means to leave (short of walking through torrential rains and the winds generated by a Category 4 hurricane) and you want to pretend that the evacuation order was completely fair? I do not claim that it was racist–poor whites with no cars sufferd the same fate–but your comment demonstrates willful ignorance. > > I have also seen numerous photos of whites being picked up by helicopter, so I suspect that your comment is, at best, disingenuous, but the point to note regarding New Orleans is that the major flooding is in primarily black parts of the city, so there would tend to be fewer whites lifted out. I realize that you were trying to make a point that some help has been offered to blacks, but you are doing it in a particularly snide and ill-informed manner So please tell me what you would’ve done. I’ll give you 24 hours and unlimited resources. Now, 24 hours out you really don’t have an exact idea of where Katrina will hit. She zig to the left or zag to the right just a few hours before landfall. You’d better plan on evacuating at least ten million people just to be on the safe side. Bear in mind, however, that at least some of these people do not want to leave. Let’s say a million want to “ride it out.” The choppers are scrambled and ready, the buses are idling outside your door…what do you do? I’ll click the stopwatch…you can knock on the first door as soon as I say ‘go’…_GO_ ! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/83 "2005-09-02T19:40:48Z")
> [@sequent](#): > > So many ass-hammers, so little time. You know, I moved this back to **[GD** for you. If your going to behave as if this is the **Pit** , I’ll simply move it back.l [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/84 "2005-09-02T19:43:27Z")
**Stephe96** , you’re still being disingenuous. You are the one making snide and ill-informed comments. I have simply pointed out the flaws in your failed attempts at irony. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/85 "2005-09-02T19:45:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Stephe96** , you’re still being disingenuous. > > You are the one making snide and ill-informed comments. I have simply pointed out the flaws in your failed attempts at irony. My last post was not ‘ironic.’ I’d like to know where you would’ve started evacuating people, and how you would have accomplished the task. Did the mayor arrange for transportation on city buses? Did the governor deploy the National Guard to assist with the evacuation? What would _you_ have done? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/86 "2005-09-02T19:46:48Z")
[New Orleans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans) has a large majority Black population: > [@](#): > > As of the census of 2000, there are 484,674 people, 188,251 households, and 112,950 families residing in the city. he racial makeup of the city is 28.05% White, 67.25% African American, 0.20% Native American, 2.26% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.93% from other races, and 1.28% from two or more races. 3.06% of the population are Hispanic or Latino of any race. It’s most likely that the racial makeup of the very poor is even more heavily skewed towards Black residents, and that is almost certainly due in large part to racism. But I just don’t see that the rescue efforts are tainted significantly with racism. If someone can show that helicopters were diverted from Black neighborhoods to White neighborhoods, that would be one thing. But all we have so far is wild speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/87 "2005-09-02T19:48:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You know, I moved this back to **[GD** for you. If your going to behave as if this is the **Pit** , I’ll simply move it back.l > > [/Moderator Mode] Sorry…I didn’t realize the comment was so out-of-line. I don’t post often enough to have both a Pit mode and non-Pit mode, so you’ll have to excuse me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/88 "2005-09-02T19:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > My last post was not ‘ironic.’ No. It was a hasty attempt to get serious to CYA on your earlier remarks. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/89 "2005-09-02T19:50:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m (mostly) on the side that says that racism was not the cause of the disaster we are seeing (although **Monstro** made some good points about the way race figures into the overall picture). Tell me: where do you see _some_ racism as the cause? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/90 "2005-09-02T19:52:40Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Did the mayor arrange for transportation on city buses? Are you implying that the mayor is racist because he didn’t do this? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/91 "2005-09-02T19:53:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Are you implying that the mayor is racist because he didn’t do this? Um. I believe the mayor of New Orleans is black. And, no. I’m not implying anyone is racist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/92 "2005-09-02T20:02:50Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Tell me: where do you see _some_ racism as the cause? Since I have not made any claim that racism was a cause, ( **monstro** ’s point had to do with the way the reporting and treatment of the issue has unfolded, not with the causes of the disaster), you appear to be simply looking for a fight without even paying attention to what has been posted. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/93 "2005-09-02T20:07:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I’m (mostly) on the side that says that racism was not the cause of the disaster we are seeing (although **Monstro** made some good points about the way race figures into the overall picture). Please understand, I don’t think racism is the cause of the disaster–the hurricane and the levee breaks are the cause (and I think you know I didn’t mean that, but I just wanted to clarify). Nor do I think the government is actively profiling those it rescues or conciously considered race in its preparations for relief. Nor do I want to point blame at any one man or organization–because I _don’t_ have an answer as to what I would have done differently. That doesn’t change the fact that the response was remarkably late to arrive, something I think is decidedly unreasonable in this day, age, and place. And I can’t help but see a connection between the race/class of the majority of the victims we’re seeing at the facilities in downtown New Orleans. To those who say it’s coincidence, just circumstance, I just shake my head. Again, the question that frames it perfectly for me is, how is it the country that sent men to the moon was unable to save so many citizens of one of its own cities? The answer I’m hearing from most people is that “it’s really, really hard.” You know, I’m just looking at the coverage like most everyone else, and the pictures tell me there’s a lot more to the story besides “it’s a coincidence” and “it’s really, really hard.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/94 "2005-09-02T20:13:56Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Again, the question that frames it perfectly for me is, how is it the country that sent men to the moon was unable to save so many citizens of one of its own cities? The answer I’m hearing from most people is that “it’s really, really hard.” September 12, 1962: President Kennedy promises to send a man to the moon and return him safely to Earth. July 21, 1969: that man arrives on the moon. Elapsed time: slightly less than seven years. August 29, 2005: A category 5 hurricane hits a city that is largely below sea level. As of September 2, relief is on the way, and the number of people saved will be better tomorrow and the next day and the next day. Elapsed time: not even a week. Shut up about the freakin’ moon. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/95 "2005-09-02T20:21:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Shut up about the freakin’ moon. Nope, I don’t buy it. People in the hurricane community have been talking about New Orleans for years. It’s been the quintessential example of the ultimate hurricane disaster waiting-to-happen. But really, you can take your pick. As I said before, at this point in the war, we were halfway to Baghdad. You can try all you want to explain how these things are “easier” than sending a convoy of trucks into a major American city partially flooded under 8 feet of water. I’d give you fifty years to get to the moon and you still would not have made your point. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/96 "2005-09-02T20:30:25Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Nope, I don’t buy it. People in the hurricane community have been talking about New Orleans for years. It’s been the quintessential example of the ultimate hurricane disaster waiting-to-happen. But really, you can take your pick. As I said before, at this point in the war, we were halfway to Baghdad. You can try all you want to explain how these things are “easier” than sending a convoy of trucks into a major American city partially flooded under 8 feet of water. I’d give you fifty years to get to the moon and you still would not have made your point. Exactly. Through NPR’s coverage, I’ve heard an ex-Marine (waiting to be rescued) state that the situation in New Orleans rivals what he saw during his service. Everyone has the same question - why is it taking so long to get people out? Today’s progress has been amazing… if this kicked in from Monday, we might only have a small number of people still left. If it’s so hard and difficult, a leader needs to get up front and explain why it is. And when people can expect relief. I’m not exempting the municipal government from this, either. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/97 "2005-09-02T20:34:46Z")
Even if we give them the benefit of the doubt about how hard it was to get the trucks in, I fail to see what’s so difficult about doing air-drops of food, water and supplies to forestall the death and suffering that one would know was going to occur in the meantime. Given today’s progress, you’d think our trucks run on media coverage instead of gasoline. It simply doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/98 "2005-09-02T20:41:42Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Nope, I don’t buy it. People in the hurricane community have been talking about New Orleans for years. It’s been the quintessential example of the ultimate hurricane disaster waiting-to-happen. But really, you can take your pick. As I said before, at this point in the war, we were halfway to Baghdad. You can try all you want to explain how these things are “easier” than sending a convoy of trucks into a major American city partially flooded under 8 feet of water. I’d give you fifty years to get to the moon and you still would not have made your point. Ah, another relevant example. How long did we have to plan the Baghdad assault, and assemble the forces? Sure, we were halfway to Baghdad in three days; that was the tip of the iceberg. When did we start sending troops over? when did we start planning the assault? Now, your point about New Orleans being a known problem for years is true. It isn’t meaningful, however. When was the last time a Category 5 hurricane hit New Orleans? By that, I mean to point out the very human fact that ANY coastal city in the Gulf or the south-eastern seaboard is vulnerable to a huge storm. Consider September 8th, 1900, in Galveston. What might happen today if a similar storm struck Galveston? Are we prepared? Only three Category 5 hurricanes had struck the US before now in recorded weather history: The Labor Day Hurricane of 1935, Hurricane Camille (1969), and Hurricane Andrew in August, 1992. None of them were as strong as Gilbert, which thankfully didn’t hit anywhere – but would have caused far worse devastation than Andrew if IT had been the one to careen across Florida. We simply do not have the resources to hurricane-proof our coast. Listen carefully to that fact. Repeat it to yourself until you grasp it: we cannot adaquately prepare for a major hurricane. We can’t. Now, in the aftermath, you whine about how we were not ready. But if, according to you, we should have spent millions fortifying New Orleans… what if the hurricane had hit the Outer Banks of North Carolina? Your decision to spend all that money fortifying New Orleans would seem foolish as hundreds died because we didn’t address North Carolina’s needs, wouldn’t it? Your reaction is understandable, and human. But it’s ultimately founded on a poor assumption, or on basic ignorance of planning and logistics. NOW, after the hit, it’s easy to say we should have been fortifying New Orleans. But if it was so blindingly obvious, please point me to a post you made before August 25th of this year calling for increased federal funding to New Orleans’ levee repair. If it was so clear and unambiguous a need, why weren’t you writing your congressman demanding that the federal government step up funding for the Corps of Engineers? As a general principle, people do not seem to understand risk analysis. If you wish to be utterly safe, then we need to evacuate and relocate \*every single Gulf coast and eastern seaboard city. Also the West Coast, threatened by the San Andreas fault. And Lord knows when Mount St. Helens is going to pop again. We need to clear out that area as well. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/99 "2005-09-02T20:45:35Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Even if we give them the benefit of the doubt about how hard it was to get the trucks in, I fail to see what’s so difficult about doing air-drops of food, water and supplies to forestall the death and suffering that one would know was going to occur in the meantime. Given today’s progress, you’d think our trucks run on media coverage instead of gasoline. It simply doesn’t make sense. What are your qualifications in logistics? How much do you know about mobilizing troops and supplies? What’s your experience in setting up supply lines and infrastructure? You’re like a guy saying, “We can’t cure AIDS yet - it doesn’t make sense!” It doesn’t make sense TO YOU because to you, these things just happen, by magic. And that magic includes some powerful crystal balls to see the future requirements. Hundreds of people and machines cannot just be magically transported to a place and be effective. What sort of real-world experience do you have with any sort of major mobilization effort? ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749/100 "2005-09-02T20:45:36Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Even if we give them the benefit of the doubt about how hard it was to get the trucks in, I fail to see what’s so difficult about doing air-drops of food, water and supplies to forestall the death and suffering that one would know was going to occur in the meantime. I feel your anger, but I’m nit-picking this one. Do you realize what’s involved with the feasability of airdropping food and water to these people? Granted, we did it a **lot** in Afghanistan, but they were on the dry ground. You want to air drop MREs and bottled water into hazardous, quite possibly deep and moving water? Bad idea. You’d have a panicked civilian mob trying to ford into danger for food and water, and would risk their lives with more casualties than necessary. You can’t air drop food and water with the precision of a 500 lb. laser guided bomb. Tripler Trust me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-how-many-poor-black-katrina-victims-does-it-take-to-equal-one-rich-9-11-victim/319749.md?page=6)