# Q on lines from Hamlet **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 4, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165 "2000-08-04T20:23:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/1 "2000-08-04T20:23:26Z")
Good afternoon. My To Blave and I caught a production of Hamlet a few nights back (Shakespeare in Richmond, VA? Who wouldda thunk?!). A couple of the lines reminded me of something that I’ve wondered about for quite some time and have yet to hear a really satisfactory answer. From [Act I, Scene II](http://www.hamlet.org/hamlet22.html): > [@](#): > > HAMLET: O Jephthah, judge of Israel, what a treasure hadst thou! > LORD POLONIUS: What a treasure had he, my lord? > HAMLET: Why, > ‘One fair daughter and no more, > The which he loved passing well.’ > LORD POLONIUS: [Aside] Still on my daughter. > HAMLET: Am I not i’ the right, old Jephthah? > LORD POLONIUS: If you call me Jephthah, my lord, I have a daughter that I love passing well. > HAMLET: Nay, that follows not. > LORD POLONIUS: What follows, then, my lord? > HAMLET: > Why, > ‘As by lot, God wot,’ > and then, you know, > ‘It came to pass, as most like it was,’– > the first row of the pious chanson will show you > more; for look, where my abridgement comes. Any Shakespeare scholars want to take a crack at explaining the Polonius / Jephthah connection? Jephthah is from the OT, [Judges: 11](http://www.omroep.nl/eo/bible/olb/usa/kjv/kjv0711.htm#). He basically ended up sacrificing his daughter to God. A dead daughter is about the best connection I could make. I kind of think that there is an explanation in the last lines of the quote, but beats me what a pious chanson, etc. is. Any takers? Thanks, Rhythmdvl ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/2 "2000-08-04T20:54:49Z")
My non-scholarly WAG would be that Will’s just foreshadowing the doomed Ophelia thing, for an audience who would have been familiar with the Jephthah story. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/3 "2000-08-04T21:03:41Z")
Unless, of course, you go in for the theory that those particular words of dialogue, if converted to numerical values as outlined in the _Big Book of Shakespearean Secret Codes_, added up, divided by the number of stitches in the Shakespeare doublet on display at the British Museum, and converted back to letters as outlined in the April 1977 issue of the _Numerology Review,_ actually spells out, “Come now oh Francis Bacon Bacon come Bill out of the hedge sparrow wherefore art thou Monica Francis Bacon someone shoot me.” This is interpreted by Baconians to mean that Sir Francis Bacon actually wrote _Hamlet,_ although it’s important to note that according to most scholars, he did not have sex with that woman. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/4 "2000-08-04T21:08:55Z")
If you don’t get a good answer here, you should try to find a copy of [Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0517268256/o/qid=965422997/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-1208217-3676819), though I don’t know if it has the anwer. A good library will probably have the book. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2000, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/5 "2000-08-04T22:31:15Z")
Well, I don’t have a copy of _Hamlet_ in front of me, nor have I read or seen it in the past couple of years, so take this with a grain of salt. My take, though, is that Hamlet is accusing Polonius of “sacrificing” his daughter’s happiness to maintain his own position at court – either by ordering her to reject Hamlet as a lover, or by using her as a trap to get Hamlet talking. I can’t remember offhand whether these lines come before or after the “Get thee to a nunnery” scene – if after, Hamlet may realize that Polonius has been spying on him and believe that Ophelia knowingly helped her father. Even if he doesn’t have any suspicions along those lines yet, he probably knows Polonius is behind Ophelia’s sudden refusal to see him; obviously, the king and queen would be none too happy about Hamlet’s wooing a commoner, and Polonius, who knows which side his bread is buttered on, has every reason to remind his daughter of her proper place. As for the “pious chanson,” I’m assuming it’s a popular (and probably long-lost) ballad about Jephath that Hamlet is quoting from. ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2000, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/6 "2000-08-05T00:11:33Z")
a couple of times hamlet refers to Claudius as somebody else. the onlyother time that comes to mind is “fishmonger”, which refers to some specific character in mythology or something. yes, i’d say it’s foreshadowing. but also, hamlet is a smart guy feigning madness (orperhaps pretending to feign madness- it goes on and on). a lot of what he says is ironic, in that he is making clever remarks and snooty asides, and everyone assumes they’re just the ravings of a madman. so think of them as jokes, in a way. ---
**Author:** ![aseymayo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@aseymayo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aseymayo)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2000, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/7 "2000-08-05T07:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > the first row of the pious chanson will show you > more; for look, where my abridgement comes. As Fretful said, the “pious chanson” (chanson is a song) refers to the ballad Hamlet is quoting in the preceding lines. As I understand it, Hamlet is saying to Polonius, “read the poem to see what I mean - I don’t have time to recite the whole thing for you because here come my guests” (i.e. the Players). I assume said poem goes on to describe the sacrifice of the daughter, so I interpret the passage as Hamlet warning Polonius, albeit in a roundabout way, that Ophelia could end up the innocent victim of her father’s meddling. The ballad isn’t long-lost, though - just long-forgotten. _Jephthah, Judge of Israel_ appears in a collection of poems called _Reliques of Ancient English Poetry_, edited by Thomas Percy and published in 1765. I couldn’t find the complete text online - Bartlett’s just quotes the same bits Hamlet used: "Have you not heard these many years ago Jeptha was judge of Israel? He had one only daughter and no mo, The which he loved passing well; And as by lott, God wot, It so came to pass, As God’s will was. " Percy’s story is fairly interesting - apparently he rescued a 17th century manuscript from “being used by the Maids to light the fire” - and that was the source of _Jephthah_ and various poems in _Reliques_. According to one bio, Percy’s other big accomplishment was writing “a popular song known as _Oh Nanny wilt thou gang wi’ me_.” I bet it was a real toe-tapper. ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2000, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/8 "2000-08-05T08:43:51Z")
First, a minor correction in the OP: The cited dialogue is actually from Act 2, Scene ii. Caveat: I believe that Hamlet is probably the Shakespearean play most widely open to interpretation. I’ve read the Cliff’s Notes, Monarch’s Notes and Barron’s Notes to this play, as well as Issac Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare, and there are probably DOZENS of theories as to whether Hamlet was insane or not, did he have a fixation on his mother, etc, etc. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fretful Porpentine \* > \*\*My take, though, is that Hamlet is accusing Polonius of “sacrificing” his daughter’s happiness to maintain his own position at court – either by ordering her to reject Hamlet as a lover, or by using her as a trap to get Hamlet talking. \*\* I believe that this theory is one that’s fairly widely held. It’s not made completely clear how much Hamlet knows of Polonius’s intrigues with Claudius, but other dialogue in this scene and other scenes seem to indicate that Hamlet knows that Polonius is up to something (also Rosencratz and Guidenstern). One example is in Act 3, Scene ii, where Hamlet indicates that a cloud looks to him like a camel, then a weasel, then a whale, in quick succession, and Polonius humors him by agreeing all three times. The theory here is that Hamlet is testing Polonius’s sycophantry. There are also indications that Hamlet knows that Ophelia is a dupe in Polonius’s intrigue. He first greets her, in Act 3, Scene i, with “Nymph, in thy orisons, be all my sins remembered.” “Orisons” mean prayers, and Hamlet is, at first, showing compassion for Ophelia’s situation and gently asking her to pray for his sins (Possibly foreshadowing his almost immediate rejection of her–“get thee to a nunnery”.) At least one of the theories I’ve heard is that Hamlet knows or suspects that Polonius and/or Claudius is eavesdropping, and this rejection of Ophelia and feigned madness is his counter intrigue. As to whether Polonius is using Ophelia to either reject Hamlet as a lover (see Hamlet’s dialogue to Polonius earlier in the same scene–“let her not walk in the sun”, “sun” being a pun for “son”–son of the king), or to get Hamlet talking (he and Claudius will spy on Ophelia and Hamlet in the “get the to a nunnery” scene), there’s pretty strong evidence that Polonius was guilty of both. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I can’t remember offhand whether these lines come before or after the “Get thee to a nunnery” scene – if after, Hamlet may realize that Polonius has been spying on him and believe that Ophelia knowingly helped her father. Even if he doesn’t have any suspicions along those lines yet, he probably knows Polonius is behind Ophelia’s sudden refusal to see him; obviously, the king and queen would be none too happy about Hamlet’s wooing a commoner, and Polonius, who knows which side his bread is buttered on, has every reason to remind his daughter of her proper place. \*\* The lines in the OP come before the “Get thee to a nunnery scene”. Again, at least one theory indicates that Hamlet is aware in the nunnery scene that he and Ophelia are being spied on. As Ophelia is portrayed throughout as weak and easily led around, I agree that he’d know that Polonius was behind Ophelia’s refusal to see him, and that Ophelia isn’t fully aware of her father’s reasons. I do take issue with the above as far as the queen being against Hamlet wooing a commoner. At Ophelia’s funeral (Act 5, Scene i), Gertrude says: > [@](#): > > “I hoped thou shouldst have been my Hamlet’s wife; > I thought thy bride-bed to have deck’d, sweet maid, > And not have strew’d thy grave.” Seemingly indicating that their courtship would have had at least Gertrude’s blessing. > [@](#): > > As for the “pious chanson,” I’m assuming it’s a popular (and probably long-lost) ballad about Jephath that Hamlet is quoting from. \*\* I’ll have to look up “chanson” in my copy of the Penguin Shakespeare. The Glossary for the Shakespearean site I normally use seems to be broken. ☹ Incidentally, it’s pretty clear that Shakespeare meant “Jephthah” to equate to “daughter sacrificer”. Shakespeare also used “Jephthah” in one other play, The Third Part of Henry the Sixth, Act 5, Scene i: > [@](#): > > “I will not ruinate my father’s house, > Who gave his blood to lime the stones together, > And set up Lancaster. Why, trow’st thou, Warwick, > That Clarence is so harsh, so blunt, unnatural, > To bend the fatal instruments of war > Against his brother and his lawful king? > Perhaps thou wilt object my holy oath: > To keep that oath were more impiety > Than Jephthah’s, when he sacrificed his daughter.” The speaker is George, Duke of Clarence, who has previously betrayed his brother, King Edward the Fourth, out of envy and a desire for Edward’s crown. However, Clarence subsequently betrays the Earl of Warwick (Edward’s foe) and rejoins his brother’s side (because he sees the tide is turning). Here, he indicates that he’s breaking a previous oath to fight against his brother, rationalizing that the sin of breaking said oath is a lesser sin than slaying a member of one’s own family, as Jephtath did. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > \*\*If you don’t get a good answer here, you should try to find a copy of [Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0517268256/o/qid=965422997/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-1208217-3676819), though I don’t know if it has the anwer. A good library will probably have the book. \*\* I have this book. I believe it does speculate on the Jephtath reference in Hamlet. I’ll have to dig it up and see if memory serves correctly. I believe it may also speculate on the meaning of “fishmonger”. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/9 "2000-08-05T16:54:18Z")
If you want another source, you can look for a Folger Library copy of _Hamlet_. They are annotated, and more than likely will have some explanation/interpretation of this quote. **DRY** , this was suggested by my daughter, **Sakura** , who was reading over my shoulder while I read the OP. I told you she was good! Now just wait for a baseball thread!! ---
**Author:** ![jb\_farley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9d8465/32.png) [@jb\_farley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jb_farley)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2000, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/10 "2000-08-05T18:03:38Z")
oooh jeez, i wish i could find my copy of Folger’s Hamlet. I was reading it not a few weeks ago, and a hilarious bunch of footnotes caught my eye. i think i was either up to act four, or the end of act three. there were only four line notes on the opposing page (those familiar w/ folgers know what i mean). the last two were as follows (the cited words are correct- it’s the interpretations that are a bit funny) **Gis** - a contraction for Jesus **Cock** - a substitute for God the ramifications are endless, people! i hope at least one person finds this as disconcerting and funny as I. ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/11 "2000-08-06T08:30:08Z")
First of all, Aseymayo was quite correct in stating that “chanson” is a song. Asimov’s theory was essentially what I posted previously (not surprising, because I’d indicated that my “take” on the scene in question was probably influenced by this book). Asimov felt that Hamlet truly loved Ophelia, knew that she was obeying her father’s orders in rejecting him, and was contemptous of Polonius for this reason, and additionally for possibly influencing the crowning of Claudius as King of Denmark instead of Hamlet (Hamlet was father to the late king, and in many countries would have naturally succeeded to the throne). Asimov, in particular, cites to this exchange: > [@](#): > > Polonius: If you call me Jephthah, my lord, I have a daughter that I love passing well. > > Hamlet: Nay, that follows not. in support of his theory, explaining that Hamlet’s line above is meant to imply that Hamlet does not believe that Polonius loves his daughter, since he is willing to use her as a pawn in a political game. I confess I forgot to look up if Asimov has any interpretation of “fishmonger”, though. Sorry! ☹ I’d like to mention that I think Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare is a truly excellent book, and is usually one I name in the “which book would you want on a desert island” discussion. I can’t recommend this book highly enough. However, a final caveat: Again, the theory above is just one of many. It would be arrogant for me, Asimov, or anyone else to say that their interpretation of this scene, or any other scene in Hamlet is “the” correct one. Finally, a thank you to DaveW00071, Sakura, and jb\_farley for their suggestion re the Folger Hamlet. I confess I’m not familiar with it. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2000, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/12 "2000-08-06T11:51:49Z")
I believe ‘fishmonger’ was a slang for pimp, ‘selling fish’ or, well, you know. This would tie-in to the nunnery scene, nunnery being used as slang for brothel. So what it means is that Hamlet is accusing Polonius of pimping Ophelia to Hamlet so that he can get a better position, sacrificing her happiness as Jephthah sacrificed her daughter. He used this particular allegory to mock Polonius’s show of high-minded nobility. ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/13 "2000-08-07T09:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*I believe ‘fishmonger’ was a slang for pimp, ‘selling fish’ or, well, you know. This would tie-in to the nunnery scene, nunnery being used as slang for brothel. So what it means is that Hamlet is accusing Polonius of pimping Ophelia to Hamlet so that he can get a better position, sacrificing her happiness as Jephthah sacrificed her daughter. He used this particular allegory to mock Polonius’s show of high-minded nobility. \*\* Capacitor is absolutely right. The Penguin version of Shakespeare lists “pimp” and “procurer” as a synonym for “fishmonger”. Well done, capacitor! ---
**Author:** ![APB9999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB9999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB9999)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2000, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-on-lines-from-hamlet/28165/14 "2000-08-07T18:09:09Z")
The Arden edition is by far the most scholarly and has the best footnotes, IMO. The footnotes for this passage in Act II, Scene II read: > [@](#): > > 1. _Jephtah, judge of Israel_] Judges xi.30-40. Jephtah sacrificed his daughter, who bewailed her virginity. As a type he is the opposite of a fishmonger (cf. l. 174 and LN) and recalls the warning of ll. 181-6. _Jephtah, Judge of Israel_ is actually the title of a well known ballad, from which Hamlet proceeds to quote (ll.403-4, 412-14). LN. Also: > [@](#): > > 1. _that follows not_] Because Polonius is like Jephtah in having a daughter, it does not follow that he is like him in loving her. > > 411-14.] Hamlet affects to misunderstand and tells not what follows logically but what follows in the ballad. See l.399 LN. > > 1. _pious chanson_] So called because it is a song based on holy writ. This sounds more like a term from a songbook title than a Shakesperian coinage. Attempts to defend the F _Pons Chanson_ by linking it with the French _chanson du pont-neuf_, a street ballad, could afford a cautionary tale. The synonymous substitutions of Q1 show, again, what the actors understood. This last note requires some explanation. F refers to the folio publication of the play, Q1 to the first quarto publication, and there is also a Q2 or second quarto (from which the Arden text principally comes). These were the original publications, typeset from Billy’s actual handwritten scripts, and sometimes cursive script could be misread by the typesetter, hence “pious chanson” may have been misread “pons chanson” or vice versa. The folio has “pons”, Q1 and Q2 both have “pious”. (That was a gross simplification of the history of the folios and quartos, and the differences between them, and why, but you get the idea.) So the answer to your question is that Hamlet is making reference to a popular ballad of the day, and the chanson reference thus refers to this “holy” (because it is a Bible story) song. The longer notes at the back give the entire Jephtah ballad (64 lines). If you’re really interested, pick up a copy of **The Arden Shakespeare** HAMLET. The ballad starts on page 475. The first two stanzas are: > [@](#): > > I read that many years agoe, > when Jepha Judge of Israel, > Had one fair daughter and no more, > whom he loved so passing well. > > And as by lot God wot, > It came to passe most like it was, > Great warrs there should be, > and who should be the chiefe, but he, but he. and so on. Hope this helps.