# "Qing Dynasty" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186 "2012-05-07T16:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eastwest99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85f322/32.png) [@Eastwest99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eastwest99)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/1 "2012-05-07T16:07:18Z")
“That which accounts for the unprecedented success of the Qing Dynasty also explains its demise.” Explain? Yes this a topic for lecture today and other than relating this to Confucian way of thinking, I’m caught in scratching my head… The way I would interrupt this is to say what is profitable is not always right? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/2 "2012-05-07T16:24:57Z")
Perhaps the lecturer was referring to territorial expansion. The conquest of new territories gave the Qing Dynasty prestige and legitimacy but it also placed burdens of the resources of the state. Or maybe it was a reference to the strong government control exercised under the Qing Dynasty. The Qing Dynasty was effective in suppressing dissent which might otherwise have weakened the government. But at the same time, this meant that the government never had to learn to accommodate dissent and became very rigid. When forces came along that the government couldn’t suppress - like the European powers - the regime was unable to adapt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/3 "2012-05-07T16:35:24Z")
How many of your homework questions are you going to treat us with? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/4 "2012-05-07T16:57:05Z")
> [@Eastwest99](#): > > “That which accounts for the unprecedented success of the Qing Dynasty also explains its demise.” Explain? Centuries of agricultural refinement finally synergized with a period of sustained internal peace and prosperity to lead to a population explosion. From 1741 to 1812 the population rose from 143 million to 360 million. Which in turn led to more state prosperity and power through increased land revenues, but also exploding industrial production as the number of active consumers sky-rocketed. The economy monetized ( from the early 17th century at least ) as China became the world’s silver sink - internally self-sufficient, but producing many in-demand exports, the great bulk of the New World silver production ended up in China. As a result by 1800 China’s per capita income, as well some measures of standard of living like per capita sugar consumption, exceeded that of regions like England and France, this despite a massively larger population. However the Qing bureaucratic infrastructure failed to keep pace with this expanding population and as a result became increasingly sclerotic and dysfunctional. This was just one of several factors that brought down the Qing edifice, but it definitely played a role. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/5 "2012-05-07T17:02:58Z")
In [_The Birth of the Modern,_](http://www.amazon.com/The-Birth-Modern-Society-1815-1830/dp/0060922826) conservative historian Paul Johnson blames the “cathedocracy” of the Confucian system, filled with exam-winning scholar-bureaucrats with an inflated idea of their own worth and importance, and every one supporting his own staff/entourage of supernumeries and hangers-on not funded by the state, a situation practically demanding corruption. Also, the lack of any real useful currency – the Chinese at this period, he says, had no real silver coinage, only silver ingots. Caveat: These are the chapters where Johnson clearly is at pains to justify the British role in the Opium Wars. (One of the uses the Chinese had for opium, he says, was as currency.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/6 "2012-05-07T17:03:23Z")
Whoops, I see what **Czarcasm** meant. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/7 "2012-05-07T17:05:33Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Whoops, I see what **Czarcasm** meant. So what? It’s good exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/8 "2012-05-07T17:12:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So what? It’s good exercise. The kid has basically listed all the questions on an upcoming test in both Great Debates and (believe it or not) The Barn House. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-dynasty/621186/9 "2012-05-07T17:23:08Z")
Eastwest99, you have submitted 8, (so far), threads asking General Questions regarding historical China in multiple fora. Knock it off. We do not permit homework questions. We do not permit spamming the board. We really prefer that posters pay attention to the rules and the culture of the board. Take a deep breath. Read over the descriptions of each forum to see what sort of post is appropriate to it. Closed.