# "Qing" instead of "Manchu" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 31, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346 "2024-05-31T18:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/1 "2024-05-31T18:37:58Z")
About when did it become the standard in the west to refer to the last imperial dynasty of China as the Qing rather than the Manchu? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/2 "2024-05-31T20:53:08Z")
“Q’ing” was the dynasty’s official name, so in diplomatic circles, it was always “Q’ing”. Ethnic politics got a lot of attention in the 1930s, so “Manchu” became the default. After World War II, I don’t know that Westerners paid much attention to the subject of Chinese ethnic conflicts. Q’ing was the standard in history textbooks when I was in college in the 1980s. I don’t think the popular culture has ever paid much attention to the distinction. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/3 "2024-05-31T21:08:56Z")
By the way, the Manchus are actually ethnic Jurchens. After they conquered China, they adopted the name “Manchu” because they did not want to admit that they had spent centuries in a subordinate position under the Khitan, the Mongols, and the Ming. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/4 "2024-06-01T06:55:12Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > “Q’ing” was the dynasty’s official name, so in diplomatic circles, it was always “Q’ing”. Dude, you obviously have some knowledge but I have to pick a language nit. “Q’ing” was never a romanization in Wade-Giles, the Yale system or any other mainstream romanization. I do believe you are mixing modern romanization with Wade-Giles. Wade-Giles was the first de-facto romanization used widely in the press from the late 1800’s until modern Chinese pinyin used in the PRC was adopted 1980’s. The US-China diplomatic relations restarted in 1979, and Chinese pinyin adopted by the UN and most media outlets in 1986. Wade-Giles did not use “Q” in it’s system. Modern Chinese pinyin does not use an apostrophe ( ’ ) to denote aspiration. So, in diplomatic circles back in the day, it would have been romanized as “Ch’ing”, and since the late 1980’s as “Qing.” Wade-Giles was formulated by linguists. The apostrophe was used linguistically, but meant nothing to most readers. Hence, “Peking” became “Beijing” in romanization. While the modern pinyin is only a representation, it is much more accurate that Wade-Giles. And when I write representation, it means for example “x” is not pronounced like “x-ray” but represents a specific sound. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/5 "2024-06-01T07:01:19Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Ethnic politics got a lot of attention in the 1930s, so “Manchu” became the default. After World War II, I don’t know that Westerners paid much attention to the subject of Chinese ethnic conflicts. Manchu and Manchuria came out of the Japanese colonization from 1932 - 1945. Here’s wiki’s take: [Manchukuo - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo) In Wade-Giles, it was “manchu” or “manchukuo” and in Japanese “Manshūkoku” ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/6 "2024-06-01T07:06:14Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > About when did it become the standard in the west to refer to the last imperial dynasty of China as the Qing rather than the Manchu? Net-net, literally “Qing” about 1986. In China, no one would use the translation of Manchuria, instead it is typically referred to as the “3 Provinces of the NE” (东北三省). Lot’s of internal Chinese politics at play. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/7 "2024-06-01T07:10:00Z")
I remember poring through 1930’s National Geographics, when Beijing was called not Peking but “Peiping.” I believe it was because the Nationalists had returned the capital to Nanjing/“Nanking.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/8 "2024-06-01T07:15:22Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Q’ing was the standard in history textbooks when I was in college in the 1980s. In my 10th grade world history class in the late '90s it was definitely “the Manchurian dynasty”. I don’t know whether that’s because our textbook was out of date or our teacher was. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/9 "2024-06-01T08:09:43Z")
What I really want to know, though, is what does this mean for Fu Manchu…? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/10 "2024-06-01T08:41:57Z")
That we’re finally getting Werewolf Women of the SS on Blu-Ray? ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/11 "2024-06-01T15:50:20Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > What I really want to know, though, is what does this mean for Fu Manchu…? Well, that’s just Fu Qing great. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/12 "2024-06-01T16:25:35Z")
🤣 FTW ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2024, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/qing-instead-of-manchu/1002346/13 "2024-06-01T23:09:21Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > I remember poring through 1930’s National Geographics, when Beijing was called not Peking but “Peiping.” I believe it was because the Nationalists had returned the capital to Nanjing/“Nanking.” Okay, another language/history lesson. Beijing/Peking (北京） literally means “Northern Capital”. Whereas Beiping/Peiping (北平）means “Northern Peace.” Historically, the capital of China shifted around, with Nanjing/Nanking (南京）aka “Southern Capital” as the capital for about 900 years. During the Qing/Manchu Dynasty, the capital was moved to Beijing. Actually, kinda split between the Manchurian capital in Shenyang, which has a “forbidden city” of it’s own, and Beijing. There was a period of time after the fall of the Qing or Manchu Dynasty (Last Emperor) from IIRC 1911 and ~1949 when Beijing (北京）aka Peking was known as Peiping 北平. Generalismo Chiang Kai-Shek (aka “cash my check”) didn’t control the northern part of China, hence the capital was Nanjing. This was further cemented during the Anti-Japanese war, when the capital was first Nanjing and then moved deep into China’s interior with extensive mountain barriers to Chongqing. Fun fact, Chongqing was the most bombed city in WW2. Today in Taiwan, it is not uncommon for the elder generation to call it “Peiping”, and see Peiping in restaurant names dating from around the 1949 period.