Quantum Physics and Consciousness: metaphorically similar? Physically consistent?

Wait: you’re saying that stuff like quantum mechanics and consciousness are so complex that Humans can’t understand them (check). And that Humans’ current Model of Choice for stuff that complex is an emergent model. To an emergent-model hammer, they both look like nails. Hmm.

I think you are implying at least two things from that:

  • QM and Consciousness are likely far more complex than “merely emergent” - that’s just the best we can do for now.

  • The emergent nature I am focusing on is more of a byproduct of our attempt to fit a currently-trendy emergent model to these things vs. them actually having that much in common.

???

And wolfpup and Afat, where were you guys in that Free Will usefulness thread I linked to upthread? :wink:

There is one similarity between the two that I haven’t seen anyone mention yet. Consciousness and free will are sometimes described as the thing that chooses between multiple choices.

Just like the cat is both dead and alive until it is observed, I want bacon and toast for breakfast until my consciousness collapses the breakfast wave function. Or I decide to be greedy and have both!

I believe Penrose was a fan of this idea with his quantum nanotubes. The multiple choices we make each day are just quantum states and each and every choice is presented together as a wave function that your consciousness collapses into one state.
But that depends on a high level of quantum coherence throughout the brain, much higher than we’ve seen in any other macro object. Which is how most of his detractors attack him.

So both QM and Consciousness have a random component that is irreducible and so we use Emergent Models to account for that. Hmm.

The flaw of absolute determinism isn’t that all the information must have existed at the Big Bang - that’s just an idea our anthropocentic natures are uncomfortable with. The flaw is QM. That’s why I’m a causal rather than absolute determinist. The growth of complexity is explained by emergence of which there are many everyday (but no less fascinating examples).

I think the double-slit popularists make it much spookier than it is. What it really boils down to is if we measure for a particle, we get a particle, and if we measure for a wave, we get a wave. Personally I think the dual-nature (at least in our eyes) of EM radiation is fascinating enough without making it seem that the universe is conspiring to obscure which slit the particle went through. I don’t see how you think humans have some special place. At what point in our evolution did we acquire this ability to create reality? QM just doesn’t require human involvement and no credible physicist whose ego isn’t so big that it can’t withstand the notion that we really aren’t that special believes so.

No. Actually study quantum physics or neuroscience before trying to draw comparisons between the two.

Gosh thanks. So helpful. Have you studied either? Can you add to the thread?

I kinda thought we were having a nice discussion, replete with my ignorance.

Someone save Itself from himself.

Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is interconnectedness. Consciousness consists of bio-electricity of quantum energy. “Quantum” means a refining of the interstellar. To go along the myth is to become one with it.

First, the laws of physics (or any other science) are by no means absolute. They’re in a constant state of evolution, like most anything else that exists. You can call it magic, or (as I prefer) the as yet unexplained. Even then, that completely ignores the effects of experience and learning. The laws of physics don’t determine what sources of information are available to me, nor my decisions as to which sources I pay attention to, nor my experiences and the conclusions I draw from them.

Ah, a link to a Bullshit Generator that spouts contrived jargon posing as wisdom. Funny.

wolfpup, Johnny Ace, KidCharlemagne, and Asympotically Fat - I am not sure if what you folks are discussing is germane to the OP. If it is, I would appreciate hearing how as I try to noodle this stuff.

At this point, I am inclined to think that QM and Consciousness have their complexity in common more than any specific emergent structure. So, more similar metaphorically than actually.

You’re right, the free will vs. determinism stuff would probably be more appropriately discussed in that thread.

A usual response to speculating about any sort of connection between quantum physics and consciousness is that quantum effects do not have any meaningful influence at the scales where we expect the answers to the mysteries of consciousness lie.

In a sense, this is true (or may be true: recent discoveries regarding photosynthesis and avian magnetoception have at least open the doors towards speculating a role for quantum effects in biology), but besides the point: because additionally to some neat new phenomena to play with, a new physical theory also invites new metaphysics, new ways of thinking about what may be physically possible—new tools for explaining stuff.

And indeed, quantum physics has already amassed an impressive track record in this regard: for one, the stability and extension of ordinary matter is an unexplained posit of classical physics—but it finds an explanation in quantum theory: the quantization of angular momentum ensures stable electron configurations; additionally, the Pauli exclusion principle forbids everything to just go on top of every other thing.

So, having already explained the central property of Descartes’ res extensa—its extendedness—even though there are no significant quantum effects on the level of tables and chairs, one might at least make a poetic case that it’d be only right for QM to do the same to his res cogitans. But is there more than poetry to it? Well, nobody knows, as of yet. I think one interesting direction is that quantum mechanics has shown us that there are more ways that one can combine properties than one would classically expect.

Using simple combinatorial reasoning, two sorts of properties—say properties ‘M’ and ‘P’—could conceivably be related in only a few ways: they could be wholly distinct; all elements of ‘M’ could also be elements of ‘P’, or vice versa; there could be some kind of overlap; they could be identical; there could in fact be no ‘M’; or there could in fact be no ‘P’. In the philosophy of mind these correspond to the possibilities of dualism (parallelism), interactionism, dual-aspect theories, reductionism—both materialism and idealism—, and eliminativism (both of the materialist and the idealist sort, the latter of which nobody has, to my knowledge, ever defended).

Before the advent of quantum theory, I’m sure most philosophers would have considered that this list is exhaustive, and moreover, that it’s analytic that there couldn’t be any more options—that’s simply it, it’s gotta be one of those options, we only have to figure out which. But quantum mechanics hints at another option, typically called ‘complementarity’: two properties—say, wave-like and particle-like behavior—may be related in such a way that both are necessary for a complete explanation, yet both are mutually incompatible, and not reducible to one another.

Does this lead us anywhere? Well, who knows—but I think one important lesson is that new discoveries may not only introduce novel phenomena, but also, novel modes of understanding and explanation.

Nice to see you in the thread HMHW. You get this stuff, certainly better than I do as a civilian.

I think what you are saying is that QM blows open rigid explanations because of properties it has, such as complementarity, that toss standard macro explanations out the window. Yep, check.

But you are looking at the application of QM concepts to consciousness - as Descartes referred to it as res cognitans, apparently - as poetry. Basically, there is metaphorical value to taking the paradigm-shifting language from QM and using it to look at consciousness, but not necessarily as the literal stuff that consciousness is made of.

More to noodle.

No, what you’re talking about is magic. Science builds on an established base of knowledge cumulatively, incrementally, and rationally, based on evidence and reason. Science doesn’t advance by positing, with absolutely no basis and absolutely no evidence, that some major phenomenon of which we have a significant if imperfect understanding is not what we think it is, but is something “yet unexplained”.

Not to be harsh, but that is completely wrong, complete unmitigated bullshit and astoundingly myopic unscientific thinking. The laws of physics (in the broadest sense) determine everything in the natural world, even your thoughts and decisions – unless you’re not part of the natural world. If they don’t determine what you described, then you need to explain what universe you inhabit and what physical laws DO apply to you, and the only option you have is “magic”. Moreover, what you describe is hardly mystical in the 21st century. A computer AI can learn from experience, make decisions, set priorities, and draw conclusions – all the things you think are mystical. And as far as the brain is concerned, many of its logical functions can be modeled by cognitive science and emerging disciplines like computational neuroscience, and its physical processes are becoming understood by disciplines like neurophysiology assisted by investigative tools like 3D microscopy and many others.

Believe this… When I die, this world is done and all of you are coming with me.

Show of hands for all who wish to play another round of “hide and seek” with me.

And guess what? Science is often wrong. Accepted theories are modified or discarded as new evidence and theories are discovered, and the process will continue as long as there are people oriented toward its advancement. Claiming that you can understand consciousness or ascribe it to “if x, then y” logic is at least as unscientific.

What about our ‘significant’ understanding of consciousness is explained by the laws of physics at this point? I’d also posit that our understanding of consciousness is far less than you appear to believe.

It’s certainly no more ‘magical’ thinking, nor more myopic, than your claiming that consciousness must be absolutely deterministic based on the laws of physics, of both of which we also have far less than perfect knowledge. It’s a theory like any other, and that’s all.

Anyway, this is not the forum for such a discussion. If you want to continue it, I suggest we move it to the free will vs. determinism thread.

The Universe is nothing more than energy bound into different states, yes?

You are ignoring the big difference here, Science changes it’s views when it is proven wrong and the entire scientific method is meant to combat the falacies of human thinking that result in this fully unrealistic ideas.

Science does not simply revert to the “god of the gaps” which is exactly what the woo around quantum consciousness does.

It is magical thinking because you believe that consciousness is some special fundamental property. There is no evidence at all to point to anything except that it is a side effect of physical events. As your side is making the extraordinary claim it is up to you to provide evidence for this fact.

I could claim that the world is run by invisible zombie elephants that squirt milk across the ether to allow sentient beings to communicate but it doesn’t make it true.

But lets be clear, while there is the spooky action at a distance it does not convey information nor does it invalidate the speed limit of causality which is often referred to as the speed of light.

There is also the problem of using the lay meaning of “theory” within a discussion relating to the scientific method. A “theory” is not random opining, A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.

So if you have a “theory” provide the observations and experiments that provide this evidence.

Well, actually, it is different. Information has properties that matter doesn’t.

Conventionally, information can be created by random (and random-like) processes. Darwinian evolution uses randomness to create diversity, then winnows the diversity down again by competition.

In an absolute (Newtonian) system of determinism, there is no randomness, thus no driving force of information creation. All information is absolutely implicit in the past…and the future.

(Not really a big deal, because no one believes in absolute Newtonian determinism any more anyway.)