# Quartz **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840 "2019-02-19T16:51:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/81 "2019-02-20T21:15:44Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > the Scottish economy is infinitely more geared towards EU membership than East Germany’s was. The problem is that Scotland, as an independent entity, doesn’t _have_ an economy, in the sense that EU rules say is needed to join. If a newly independent Scotland had to meet the same criteria as various eastern European countries, it would fail dismally. So, the rules would have to be bent or changed, and that would have consequences for other potential members - and it’s not certain that the EU will do that. It’s not certain that they won’t, of course, but leaving the UK on the assumption they will seems dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/82 "2019-02-20T21:23:19Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Seems to me we have a little enclave of remoaners, with very little reference the the democratic majority. > > Hard cheese, it is incredibly patronising for you losers to believe that we are all idiots, or too dumb to understand the ever so complicated information that all you very intelligent people seem to have - if you are so fucking clever then why couldn’t you convince the majority of folk that I know? > > After all you are sooooo clever aren’t you? it should not be beyond your superior intellect to come up with a way to do this, and yet you could not. > > Here is the one fact you cannot get around, remain had the absolute overwhelming majority of broadcast media, along with most of the newsprint media, and the so called ‘opinion formers’ along with a vast advertising budget - far in excess of the BREXIT campaign, yet you still could not get your point across to the majority - or do you conveniently forget the £7m of public money that was used to print a leaflet that was delivered through your letterbox telling you how to vote > > Had the media been more even handed, had the distribution of campaign resources been more even then it would likely have been a landslide to leave. but given all those advantages you had, you still whine like spoiled children about your ‘ruined futures’. > > These are futures that have not happened yet, these are futures that you have to earn - you are not entitled to this wonderful future - you have to work for it, and its what you make it. > > Such an entitled generation, we throw away 40% of the bread we buy, we wear our clothes once or twice and throw them out - yes this same green generation that is busily landfilling all our futures, first world problems or what. > > We have thousands of EU nationals in our country committing the absolute most heinous crimes, and yet we are not allowed to deny them entry - despite long and horrific criminal records in their countries of origin.This I know from over 20 years working in our prisons, and this aspect of Europe that denies us the right to check upon the criminal records of visitors and exclude them, on its own, is enough for me to want out > > We have 80% of our legislation decided by a a committee of non-democrats, and yet you remainers seem to think that having lost the vote you will continue in the same undemocratic manner, and all the while you think of nothing but your fucking pockets, > > Oh woe is me, perhaps I shall be poor, or at least not feel as rich as I do now - well when those Euros return to their own countries maybe you can work in the field as a second job and get that money for yourselves - oh but no, you would rather not do that would you? no, you’d prefer to continue using up the worlds resources, observe the rules of foreign masters and dutifully vote in the next stage of an integrated EU army controlled by another committee that is incapable of making a decision and actually use that military force.(EU rapid reaction force, don’t make me fucking laugh) > > We already have EU ministers positing that we should have even closer integration, including a common tax system - thus centralising EU power even more - Italy and Greece have an understanding of what this means, because those nations no longer have sovereignty - the EU has decided the budgets set by their own governments are not acceptable and has insisted upon changes upon pain of fines and sanctions > > …and this is the EU freedom that you want so much? > Funnily enough a majority of us would rather we had our own freedom and not that granted by the EU talking shop - and I am prepared to pay the price for that freedom - I’ve been shot at to protect the rights of Britons, have you? > > No? then fuck off - you know nothing about the costs of freedom > My view, we need a big kick up the backside to understand what it is to work, what it is to need and what it is to value things such as our right to decide our own rules. A bit of poverty concentrates the mind wonderfully, and EU zone is nothing but a tarriff barrier designed to keep the produce of 3rd world countries out and denying such nations a chance to improve their own lot in life - and then the remainers are surprised when those 3rd work countries are in such frequent strife. Scroll up to the top of this page. Then say to yourself, “I’m part of the reason why it’s taking longer than Cecil thought.” ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/83 "2019-02-20T21:31:10Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Scroll up to the top of this page. > > Then say to yourself, “I’m part of the reason why it’s taking longer than Cecil thought.” there is something instructive about a formerly great nation about to saw off its feet based on the xenophobic resentments against the Polish plumbers and nostalgia for its now gone empire. (and reading too many of those vulgar tabloids for the page three busoms and then the political analysis of the same quality as that pretended journalism) of course in the France there are some very similar things… so far blocked from access to power. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/84 "2019-02-20T21:43:31Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Well, I guess Quartz isn’t the least informed Brexiteer around these parts… > [@Ravenman](#): > > Scroll up to the top of this page. > > Then say to yourself, “I’m part of the reason why it’s taking longer than Cecil thought.” But couldn’t you guys have responded without quoting the huge screed of dumbassery _in full_? I never understand that, now we have to scroll past it three times to follow the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/85 "2019-02-20T21:51:08Z")
It is threads like this that make me feel not quite as bad about the current shitshow going on in the US. Mutual schadenfreude…or something like that. 😃 Quartz, who isn’t for Brexit (yeah, right), also doesn’t cheer for Trump (yeah, right again). He’s a wimp who cannot express his own beliefs. He hides behind “it’s what the people want” BS. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/86 "2019-02-20T21:56:55Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But couldn’t you guys have responded without quoting the huge screed of dumbassery _in full_? I never understand that, now we have to scroll past it three times to follow the conversation. Sorry about that, it annoys me too. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/87 "2019-02-20T21:56:57Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But couldn’t you guys have responded without quoting the huge screed of dumbassery _in full_? I never understand that, now we have to scroll past it three times to follow the conversation. I’m not gonna try to highlight and delete selections of that treatise on my iPhone. That takes more time than anyone’s scrolling. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/88 "2019-02-20T23:08:19Z")
I forgot about this… > [@Will Trump be the 2020 Republican candidate?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/will-trump-be-the-2020-republican-candidate/829900/8): > > I hope Trump won’t be their candidate. I’m disappointed the Republicans haven’t deposed him now that he’s beyond the two-year mark. He has this bizarre idea that the GOP was just waiting for Trump to get to two years in office and then they would turn on him in order to get ten years of President Pence. He’d probably posted about it twenty times at least. It is purely bonkers to think that GOP could turn on Trump to install Pence, and then Pence would win in 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/89 "2019-02-20T23:12:42Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Seems to me we have a little enclave of remoaners, with very little reference the the democratic majority. What democratic majority? > [@](#): > > Hard cheese, it is incredibly patronising for you losers to believe that we are all idiots, or too dumb to understand the ever so complicated information that all you very intelligent people seem to have - if you are so fucking clever then why couldn’t you convince the majority of folk that I know? Oh, it’s not about being dumb, my friend. I’ve encountered some very intelligent people who voted Brexit. Their bullshit detectors are seriously broken, is all. Like I said, climate change deniers, flat earthers…hollow earthers, even. > [@](#): > > After all you are sooooo clever aren’t you? it should not be beyond your superior intellect to come up with a way to do this, and yet you could not. Oh, we could, but it would involve reducing ourselves to the level of the Leave campaign and producing weapons grade lies and illegal funding. > [@](#): > > Here is the one fact you cannot get around, remain had the absolute overwhelming majority of broadcast media, Lol, no. > [@](#): > > along with most of the newsprint media, Lol, no. > [@](#): > > and the so called ‘opinion formers’ along with a vast advertising budget - far in excess of the BREXIT campaign, yet you still could not get your point across to the majority - or do you conveniently forget the £7m of public money that was used to print a leaflet that was delivered through your letterbox telling you how to vote Legally required, and entirely legitimate. I love how Brexiters moan about this. Like with everything, they attack the message and never the messenger. > [@](#): > > Had the media been more even handed, had the distribution of campaign resources been more even then it would likely have been a landslide to leave. but given all those advantages you had, you still whine like spoiled children about your ‘ruined futures’. Haha, no. If Leave hadn’t broken the law, and had stuck with a single, coherent prospectus for what Brexit means, instead of promising the earth in a morass of completely contradictory claims and meaningless slogans, and if the press and broadcast media had done its job and called out Brexiter snake oil and unicorn peddling for what it is, rather than letting them mouth off unchallenged, Remain would have won. > [@](#): > > These are futures that have not happened yet, these are futures that you have to earn - you are not entitled to this wonderful future - you have to work for it, and its what you make it. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Brexiters did work for it rather than devoting their energies to unicorns and blame passing. > [@](#): > > Such an entitled generation, we throw away 40% of the bread we buy, we wear our clothes once or twice and throw them out - yes this same green generation that is busily landfilling all our futures, first world problems or what. Which is funny that you mention, as the EU is leading the world on reducing food waste and creating a circular economy. Brexit breaks the thing that is solving those problems. > [@](#): > > We have thousands of EU nationals in our country committing the absolute most heinous crimes, and yet we are not allowed to deny them entry - despite long and horrific criminal records in their countries of origin.This I know from over 20 years working in our prisons, and this aspect of Europe that denies us the right to check upon the criminal records of visitors and exclude them, on its own, is enough for me to want out This is a lie. EU free movement law has always allowed the UK to restrict criminals and remove them to their home country. The UK is just very lazy in actually doing so. > [@](#): > > We have 80% of our legislation decided by a a committee Lie. > [@](#): > > of non-democrats Lie. > [@](#): > > and yet you remainers seem to think that having lost the vote you will continue in the same undemocratic manner, :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > and all the while you think of nothing but your fucking pockets, We’re concerned about much more than pockets, and certainly not only our own. We actually give a shit about others, you see. You should try it sometime. > [@](#): > > Oh woe is me, perhaps I shall be poor, or at least not feel as rich as I do now - well when those Euros return to their own countries maybe you can work in the field as a second job and get that money for yourselves - oh but no, you would rather not do that would you? no, you’d prefer to continue using up the worlds resources, Show me the big red bus where Leave said ‘we should leave the EU because we should make ourselves poorer and get second jobs because we currently use global resources too much.’ > [@](#): > > observe the rules of foreign masters Oh, _da._ > [@](#): > > and dutifully vote in the next stage of an integrated EU army controlled by another committee that is incapable of making a decision and actually use that military force.(EU rapid reaction force, don’t make me fucking laugh) Haha, the state of this bit. Lie. > [@](#): > > We already have EU ministers positing that we should have even closer integration, including a common tax system - thus centralising EU power even more - Heavens to Betsy, ideas are proposed the very idea that ideas should be floated. It’s enough to make me shudder. _Ideas!_ > [@](#): > > Italy and Greece have an understanding of what this means, because those nations no longer have sovereignty Lie. > [@](#): > > - the EU has decided the budgets set by their own governments are not acceptable and has insisted upon changes upon pain of fines and sanctions Oh goodness me, the EU making countries follow the treaty rules that they freely signed up to. The horror. True patriots violate the law, as Brexiters well know. > [@](#): > > …and this is the EU freedom that you want so much? What, the cartoon super villain organisation that you just made up? Gosh no, that sounds awful. The EU as it actually is is pretty decent though. > [@](#): > > Funnily enough a majority of us would rather we had our own freedom and not that granted by the EU talking shop - So what is it, a tyranny or a talking shop? And what freedom are you gaining? The experience of the past two years should show all of us that the UK on its own will be utterly, utterly ruined if it tries to take on the big boys. The EU makes Malta as powerful as the US in trade negotiations. The UK will be weaker than Malta in future. That’s freedom, is it? > [@](#): > > and I am prepared to pay the price for that freedom - I’ve been shot at to protect the rights of Britons, have you? > > No? then fuck off - you know nothing about the costs of freedom Excuse me, but what the fuck is that about? You think being shot at in combat makes your bullshit arguments any less detached from reality? Is it not possible for a soldier to be incorrect, somehow, magically? > [@](#): > > My view, we need a big kick up the backside to understand what it is to work, what it is to need and what it is to value things such as our right to decide our own rules. A bit of poverty concentrates the mind wonderfully, and EU zone is nothing but a tarriff barrier designed to keep the produce of 3rd world countries out and denying such nations a chance to improve their own lot in life - and then the remainers are surprised when those 3rd work countries are in such frequent strife. Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. If Leave had campaigned on this prospectus of us deserving hardship to learn some truths, they’d have lost. I wonder why they didn’t? And you claim it has a democratic mandate? Please, my sides. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/90 "2019-02-21T05:39:17Z")
> [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > Spain didn’t have any problem with the 2014 Scottish referendum, as it was done constitutionally. Yes, there is a huge difference between “we’d like to reconsider whether we want to stay married or not” and throwing a tantrum in the face of someone who’s been giving you every. Damn. Little. Special. Thing. You wanted… you know, I’ve said it before so my apologies for sounding like a broken record, but the arguments and attitudes of Catexiters and Brexiters have a lot in common, and the legality of it is nowhere to be found in the Catalonian case. > [@](#): > > The EU allowed _East Germany_ to become part of it - the Scottish economy is infinitely more geared towards EU membership than East Germany’s was. Economy, political system… East Germans didn’t even know what a choice of toilet paper was, much less a choice of political representatives. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/91 "2019-02-21T17:49:09Z")
What is it about Brexit supporters that they go incredibly quiet when you ask them direct questions? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/92 "2019-02-21T18:11:03Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What is it about Brexit supporters that they go incredibly quiet when you ask them direct questions? Help, help, they’re being repressed. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/93 "2019-02-22T09:47:04Z")
For anyone who might be interested in the claim that the “EU zone is nothing but a tarriff barrier designed to keep the produce of 3rd world countries out and denying such nations a chance to improve their own lot in life”, I thought the following might be of interest: > **[Reality Check: What are the tariffs on trade with Africa?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45342607)** > > UK Prime Minister Theresa May is setting out a plan for future trade and investment relationships with African countries. > [@](#): > > The relatively simple element is the EU’s arrangement for a group of nations known as Least Developed Countries (LDCs.) > > Of these LDCs, there are currently 33 in Africa - most of the countries on the continent. These “are low-income countries confronting severe structural impediments to sustainable development”. > > These countries have duty-free access for their goods to the EU under an initiative known as Everything but Arms (EBA). The same access is also given to Equatorial Guinea, which used to be an LDC country. > > \*\*If it’s not a weapon or ammunition, and it is made or grown in one of the countries concerned, it has duty-free access to the EU. \*\*If the product is from Ethiopia, Uganda or Malawi, for example, there would be no tariffs. It’s a good article that goes into detail on the various treaties that apply here, and I’d recommend reading it if you thought Casdave’s claim had any substance. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/94 "2019-02-22T09:56:15Z")
I’m definitely no expert in international trade (I make stuff and check it; others sell and ship it), but AFAICT the biggest advantage of the EU as a trade zone is the simplified paperwork and logistics. That in order to have those advantages we agree to not impose tariffs on each other is kind of secondary. And of course, that we don’t impose tariffs on each other doesn’t mean we automatically impose them on everybody else. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/95 "2019-02-22T10:00:45Z")
Next, onto this claim: “We have 80% of our legislation decided by a a committee of non-democrats” Non too surprisingly, this is also incorrect. Let’s start with just what percentage of our law is really set by the EU: > **[Reality Check: How much UK law comes from the EU?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105)** > > The BBC's Clive Coleman looks into opposing claims about how much UK law comes from the EU. > [@](#): > > this kind of analysis demonstrates how misleading the 62% figure is. “It is only possible to reach a figure anywhere approaching 60% by entirely ignoring the fundamental distinction between EU legislation and EU administration, thereby massively exaggerating the statistics for the amount of EU law, by including vast numbers of detailed, technical measures that would never be counted as law if they were adopted within the UK legal system,” Professor Dougan says. > > So what is the true figure? More than 13% but less than 62% - it depends what you count in and what you leave out. It is safe to say that EU law does have a very significant presence and effect in UK law. > > But is there any point in counting the number of laws? > > Not according to Sir Paul Jenkins, a former Treasury solicitor who headed up the Government Legal Department. He thinks the whole debate is a red herring. > > “This is one of many areas in the EU debate where both sides describe meaningless nonsense as facts,” he says. > > “The impact of EU law varies from sector to sector. In many areas - public order, crime, defence, health - EU laws have minimal impact. But in others - workers’ rights, trade - the impact is much greater because the single market and the free movement of workers are at the heart of what the EU is about. The way we organise our NHS is not.” In short, even Vote Leave only claimed 62%, and that’s a blatant misrepresentation. However, there is one even bigger issue with the claim that we’re having 80% of our laws forced upon us: > **[EU facts behind the claims: UK influence - Full Fact](https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/)** > > In partnership with experts at the UK in a Changing Europe project, we've taken a look at the facts behind the claims on the UK's influence in the EU. > [@](#): > > Official EU voting records\* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix. > > In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%. So, what a bunch of bastards eh: they’re undemocratically forcing us to adopt the votes that 97% of the time we’re democratically voting for. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/96 "2019-02-22T10:15:34Z")
And, finally, I really have to take a moment to praise this gem > [@casdave](#): > > I’ve been shot at to protect the rights of Britons, have you? No? then fuck off - you know nothing about the costs of freedom Now, I’m always a huge fan of sanctimonious bollocks but this one goes the extra mile for comedy gold. Casdave’s opinion is far more worthy than those who disagree with him, because he’s been shot at, to protect your freedom…but don’t you go thinking that the freedom he protected means the rank and file should get to have a dissenting opinion on something. Freedom to have a view on a subject and express that view in public, that’s not the freedom he fought for, fuck no. Satire like that…you just have to applaud it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/97 "2019-02-22T10:35:28Z")
**casdave** was in the War? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/98 "2019-02-22T11:11:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > **casdave** was in the War? Falklands, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/99 "2019-02-22T11:26:09Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > If the referendum was “Hard Brexit” or No, the majority would have voted No. It is impossible to back up this claim with actual evidence, since it is a hypothetical situation. At the time, I may very well have voted leave if this were the question put, though I probably wouldn’t do so if it were put now. > [@](#): > > If the referendum was “Brexit but stay in the Customs Union” or No, the majority would have voted No. As above, except I would probably have voted leave both then and no. > [@](#): > > The real choices were Stay or various mutually contradictory versions of Leave. And Stay won a plurality. This is extremely disingenuous at best. > [@](#): > > You are in this mess because no single Brexit plan would have worked and everybody instead kicked the ball down the road hoping that either Europe would be inclined to deal with the mess on the UK’s behalf or that the various Brexit constituencies wanting contradictory things would somehow come to agree on the same thing. This however is probably fair and although I was happy with the result, having a referendum was probably a mistake in the first place. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Considering the pound hit an all-time low the within hours of the Brexit vote tabulations being released, you would already have lost. This is factually correct but I don’t think this fact was “a disaster”. It was perhaps a minor inconvenience for people booking foreign holidays. It was quite good for most of the UK stock market. > [@Teuton](#): > > I’m just going to cut this out and leave it, really, because hey, what’s a bit of poverty and ruined economy? A fair price to pay for having one’s principles, perhaps? Plus the economy is not (yet) ruined. I suspect it would be damaged in the event of a hard Brexit, but probably not disastrously in the long run. > [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > Does your concept of freedom extend to respecting the right of the Scottish people to decide whether or not they wish to remain part of the UK once we know what terms the UK will leave the EU on? I’d say the Scottish Nationalists are free to (literally) go fuck themselves if they wish, yes. The last referendum on that subject I think demonstrated that when push comes to shove, Scotland benefits more from the UK than the other way round. The same has yet to be proven in relation to the UK and the EU. > [@Teuton](#): > > Once the UK leaves the EU, the SNP will have a political field day as they point out that Scotland has been dragged out of the EU against the will of its people, and will use that to push for another Independence referendum, which they may well win. > The EU will not want to let them in. Specifically, _Spain_ will not want to encourage the idea of countries splitting into smaller portions and successfully going their own way. Indeed, which is yet another problem with the way the EU works. > [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](#): > > Spain didn’t have any problem with the 2014 Scottish referendum, as it was done constitutionally. Of course the EU will want to retain Scotland as part of the EU, not least because the Scottish people voted so enthusiastically to stay in it. The EU allowed _East Germany_ to become part of it - the Scottish economy is infinitely more geared towards EU membership than East Germany’s was. This seems to me rather naive about the history and motivations of EU politics. > [@Ramira](#): > > there is something instructive about a formerly great nation about to saw off its feet based on the xenophobic resentments against the Polish plumbers and nostalgia for its now gone empire. (and reading too many of those vulgar tabloids for the page three busoms and then the political analysis of the same quality as that pretended journalism) That’s right, you just keep on assuming that we are all idiot racists rather than voting leave because of arrogant twats like you. > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Oh, it’s not about being dumb, my friend. I’ve encountered some very intelligent people who voted Brexit. Their bullshit detectors are seriously broken, is all. > > Like I said, climate change deniers, flat earthers…hollow earthers, even. There is scientific evidence for human-influenced climate change, and the structure of the earth. It is not comparable to economic predictions about an unknown future. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > What is it about Brexit supporters that they go incredibly quiet when you ask them direct questions? Please don’t tar us all with the same brush. I’m no fan of Quartz (he does seem to be quite knowledgeable about contract bridge, but for me that doesn’t quite redeem his rather strange views on gender, race, and politics in general). Ask me anything and I will do my best to answer. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > For anyone who might be interested in the claim that the “EU zone is nothing but a tarriff barrier designed to keep the produce of 3rd world countries out and denying such nations a chance to improve their own lot in life”, I thought the following might be of interest: > > [Reality Check: What are the tariffs on trade with Africa? - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45342607) > It’s a good article that goes into detail on the various treaties that apply here, and I’d recommend reading it if you thought Casdave’s claim had any substance. Thank you for providing useful information rather than just claiming “Lie” without providing an actual counterargument. > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Next, onto this claim: > > “We have 80% of our legislation decided by a a committee of non-democrats” > > Non too surprisingly, this is also incorrect. Let’s start with just what percentage of our law is really set by the EU: > > [Reality Check: How much UK law comes from the EU? - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105) > > In short, even Vote Leave only claimed 62%, and that’s a blatant misrepresentation. However, there is one even bigger issue with the claim that we’re having 80% of our laws forced upon us: > > [EU facts behind the claims: UK influence - Full Fact](https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/) > > So, what a bunch of bastards eh: they’re undemocratically forcing us to adopt the votes that 97% of the time we’re democratically voting for. Couple of things on this - firstly, for some of us any figure greater than 0% is too high, for me personally I’d probably accept something like 20% if it led to great benefits overall, but clearly it is a) higher than that and b) I don’t believe in the benefits. Secondly, on your last sentence - “we” are not democratically voting for it, our representatives are. And not only are they a long way removed from their electorate, both physically and culturally, they often barely have a mandate due to low turnout at EU elections. Most importantly though, I believe they simply get ground down by the system. How many times do things eventually get accepted because they are just ‘good enough’ and no-one wants to redraft them for a 5th time? That’s what happens with EU laws - many are a compromise between too many competing views that end up serving no-one well, except the lawmakers. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840/100 "2019-02-22T11:31:17Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > “we” are not democratically voting for it, our representatives are. I tell you it’s just as well that the British government doesn’t involve a system where our representatives vote on issues on our behalf, or else your complaint here would make no sense whatsoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quartz/829840.md?page=6)