# Quebec Gov't Tells Veiled Muslims "Go to the back of the line" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735 "2010-03-17T05:24:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/41 "2010-03-17T20:16:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > For most civilized people, women’s faces are not quite the same as women’s vaginas. Unless you live in the deep south, in which case the extra facial hair and common lack of teeth often makes the distinction less obvious. You really are evil. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/42 "2010-03-17T20:16:57Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Ok, I’m going to go all “hur hur” redneck for a minute. > > Look, part of the decision to immigrate to a new country involves an appreciation for the culture and value system that you’ll be immigrating into. If you can’t fucking handle it… don’t fucking immigrate there. What about the women who were born there? You’re just assuming they are all immigrants. I’m sure many, maybe most, are, but there are converts and children do grow to adulthood keeping the religious practices of their parents. BTW, I have no problem with NOT giving special treatment like this to veiled women. There are simply times in a modern society when a man who is not your relative is going to have to see your face. Face reality. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/43 "2010-03-17T20:18:55Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > why isn’t it as simple as requiring that people adhere to prevailing cultural norms instead of affording exceptions and exemptions left right and center? Sometimes it is the exceptions anad exemptions that grease the wheel of cultural integration. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/44 "2010-03-17T20:23:46Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Sometimes it is the exceptions anad exemptions that grease the wheel of cultural integration. No. Showing special treatment and giving exceptions and exemptions only reinforces that they’re different. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/45 "2010-03-17T20:32:51Z")
Next thing, the Hmong go back to arguing that their culture requires allowing men in their mid to late 30’s to marry 11-13 year old girls, which we’ve (for the most part) successfully stamped out by enforcing our existing laws against such things. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/46 "2010-03-17T20:41:25Z")
I’m torn. On one hand, I hate the prejudice these religious women are expressing towards men, but on the other hand, Quebec is being a dick in the way they are handling it. I wish they could both lose ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/47 "2010-03-17T20:45:26Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Sometimes it is the exceptions anad exemptions that grease the wheel of cultural integration. which way does that cut? she’s immigrating, she can do with a bit of exception and exemption herself in terms of porting her emigrating cultural values onto her immigrating society. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/48 "2010-03-17T20:47:53Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Ok, I’m going to go all “hur hur” redneck for a minute. Oh, in that case, so am I. Can’t we all just point and laugh at them, especially when the weather is nice and sunny? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/49 "2010-03-17T20:52:53Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > What then is one to do when an ultra-conservative Muslim wants to wear a niqāb or burqa in Canada? If we ban such attire, will it speed Muslim immigrants’ integration into Canadian society, or would it cause them to become even more offended by and isolated from Canadian society? The latter, I expect. We need to open their minds, not remove their clothes. > > If accommodations can be made that make it possible for ultra-conservative Islamic women to wear their clothing of choice, then make the accommodations, provided that there is no significant cost or significant inconvenience associated with the accommodations. Treat these women courteously, with compassion for their cultural condition, in hopes that they will engage with Canadians rather than retreat behind their walls. We need them and their children to become fully participating members of Canadian society, rather than ghettoized religious extremists. Treat the disease, not the symptom. no, having an open mind should be a fucking prerequisite to immigrating into a secular western society. we didn’t need to immigrate them in the first fucking place; you ought not to have to jump through fucking hoops and fire rings to coddle someone into the society you’re inviting them into and they’re voluntarily hoping to enter into. I understand Canada prides itself on tolerance, but Christ what you propose is setting up for a clusterfuck of individual accommodations resulting in an utter collapse of any semblance of the extant culture. [Like dipshits who want to be apologized to for wearing a hood indoors, being told to take it off, and then claiming that his it’s a part of his “jedi” religion and becoming all offended and shit.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1258365/Jedi-believer-wins-apology-Jobcentre-kicked-wearing-hood.html) ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/50 "2010-03-17T20:54:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What about the women who were born there? You’re just assuming they are all immigrants. I’m sure many, maybe most, are, but there are converts and children do grow to adulthood keeping the religious practices of their parents. oh great, a pedant. their parents who harbored these views shouldn’t have been let in (or made to conform) in the first place then, happy? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/51 "2010-03-17T21:12:33Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > which way does that cut? > > she’s immigrating, she can do with a bit of exception and exemption herself in terms of porting her emigrating cultural values onto her immigrating society. I bet she’s a fucking picky eater that forces all her friends to go th TAIF’s every week too. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/52 "2010-03-17T21:15:29Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You really are evil. 😃 Be glad I held back. I was going to bring up the canker sores and bad breathe too originally. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/53 "2010-03-17T21:20:02Z")
This is the advertisement I saw just now, in this thread. It gave me a good chuckle. [![](http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l438/AClockworkMelon/imgad.jpg) ](http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l438/AClockworkMelon/imgad.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/54 "2010-03-17T21:44:30Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > In regards to women wanting women doctors vs wanting women DMV clerks… > > For most civilized people, women’s faces are not quite the same as women’s vaginas. Unless you live in the deep south, in which case the extra facial hair and common lack of teeth often makes the distinction less obvious. That is a stereotypical, bigoted, and totally hilarious statement. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/55 "2010-03-17T21:44:35Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Well, not really. They still have to fall in line with Federal guidelines. That would depend on whether or not the person were to raise a _Charter_ claim. Matters arising out of a s. 92 provincial [constitutional power](http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/const/const1867.html#distribution) would be handled by the Québec Human Rights Tribunal, using Québec law. Matters arising out of a s. 91 federal [constitutional power](http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/const/const1867.html#distribution) would be handled by the Canadian Human Rights Commission, using federal Canadian law. Since provincial CEGEP education and provincial health insurance are both under provincial jurisdiction, Québec law would apply, not federal Canadian law. If she were to raise a _Charter_ claim, then the federal “\*Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms \* ([\*The Constitution Act \*, 1982, being Schedule B to the _Canada Act 1982_ (U.K.), 1982, c. 11](http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/const/const1982.html)) would be applied by the Québec Human Rights Tribunal on top of the Québec law, with the _Charter_ trumping. Section 1 sets out that: “\*The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms \*guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.” Section 2 (a) sets out that “religion” is a “fundamental freedom.” If the person were to make a _Charter_ claim, then the person would have to establish that the face covering was part of her religion, as opposed to being part of her culture but not part of her religion. If she were to be able to establish that the face cover was part of her religion, then the court would apply section 1 to determine if it would be appropriate to limit her freedom of religion. As noted in the [_Oakes_](http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1986/1986canlii46/1986canlii46.html) decision by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, with unanimous concurrence by the other judges: > [@](#): > > 1. > > ``` > A second contextual element of interpretation of s. 1 is provided by the words "free and democratic society". Inclusion of these words as the final standard of justification for limits on rights and freedoms refers the Court to the very purpose for which the Charter was originally entrenched in the Constitution: Canadian society is to be free and democratic. The Court must be guided by the values and principles essential to a free and democratic society which I believe embody, to name but a few, respect for the inherent dignity of the human person, commitment to social justice and equality, accommodation of a wide variety of beliefs, respect for cultural and group identity, and faith in social and political institutions which enhance the participation of individuals and groups in society. The underlying values and principles of a free and democratic society are the genesis of the rights and freedoms guaranteed by the Charter and the ultimate standard against which a limit on a right or freedom must be shown, despite its effect, to be reasonable and demonstrably justified. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/56 "2010-03-17T21:52:28Z")
Asked and answered. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/57 "2010-03-17T21:59:53Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > This is the advertisement I saw just now, in this thread. It gave me a good chuckle. > > [http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l438/AClockworkMelon/imgad.jpg](http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l438/AClockworkMelon/imgad.jpg) Wow. Racy. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/58 "2010-03-17T22:16:54Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Wow. Racy. 😃 I just thought it was funny seeing an advertisement featuring a photograph of a Muslim woman in a thread about a Muslim woman who wouldn’t allow herself to be photographed. ---
**Author:** ![Torpor\_Beast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71e660/32.png) [@Torpor\_Beast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Torpor_Beast)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/59 "2010-03-17T22:26:10Z")
> [@bosstone](#): > > wow. Racy. ankles or GTFO! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/60 "2010-03-17T22:29:19Z")
> [@Torpor\_Beast](#): > > ankles or GTFO! 😃 Most common bumper sticker seen on middle eastern VW vans: “Face, Fallafels, or Fuel” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735.md?page=4)