# Quebec Gov't Tells Veiled Muslims "Go to the back of the line" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735 "2010-03-17T05:24:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/101 "2010-03-18T15:52:20Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > (editing: I mean, isn’t it even prima facie that they’re not immigrating for the liberty and autonomy benefits when they seek to import, wholesale, the culture they came from?) couldn’t re-edit… i’m assuming, of course, that the culture they’re coming from neither provides nor values liberty and autonomy to the same extent that it is done here. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/102 "2010-03-18T15:55:36Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I’m not suggesting that the “slow cultural shifts” will come exclusively from niquabis, though. If there’s no generalized expectation of adaptation in a given society, you’ll get that pressure from 360 degrees. Believe me, this is something we have experience with in Quebec. We already find it exceptionally difficult to have immigrants, international or interprovincial, learn to communicate in French, given that it’s possible for them to get by in English only. And that’s despite taking partial control of our immigration policy despite being only a province of Canada (to focus on French-speaking immigrants) _and_ making access to English-language primary and secondary public schools dependent on _belonging to Canada’s English-language community_ defined in some way or another. Yet, I don’t see the risk in this particular case. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/103 "2010-03-18T15:55:40Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > (editing: I mean, isn’t it even prima facie that they’re not immigrating for the liberty and autonomy benefits when they seek to import, wholesale, the culture they came from?) Here’s my beef. Maybe the shithole country they are fleeing from is just that BECAUSE of their culture back home. Leave most of the crap behind and get with the new program that you choose that you think works better. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/104 "2010-03-18T16:22:10Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > With the exception of refugees from war-torn areas or people fleeing from genuine totalitarian autocracies, I don’t think people immigrate for the political/social changes, frankly. It’s all a money proposition for them. I totally agree. The attraction of liberty and autonomy isn’t the reason most immigrants come here. Rather, it’s one of the reasons they (or more commonly, their teenage children) decide they want to discard some of the more confining customs of the old country once they’ve been here a while. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/105 "2010-03-18T16:24:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I totally agree. The attraction of liberty and autonomy isn’t the reason most immigrants come here. Rather, it’s one of the reasons they (or more commonly, their teenage children) decide they want to discard some of the more confining customs of the old country once they’ve been here a while. or not 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/106 "2010-03-18T16:48:03Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I agree with Quebec. These women are immigrants to an established culture. If they don’t like the rules, they can leave.:rolleyes: The irony being that Quebec itself is a minority culture that expects certain accommodations from Canada at large. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/107 "2010-03-18T16:50:23Z")
Explain your thought. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/108 "2010-03-18T17:00:09Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The irony being that Quebec itself is a minority culture that expects certain accommodations from Canada at large. Quebec is not a minority culture. French speakers in Canada are a minority (now) but you’ll have to go back to the Quebec Act of 1774 to understand that “expects certain accommodations” is a grossly unfair description of what’s been going on for the past 200 odd years. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/109 "2010-03-18T17:10:43Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > or not True, some immigrant families don’t assimilate at all culturally, but a hell of a lot do, and over a few generations almost all of them do. For example, how many of today’s elderly widows descended from Eastern European immigrants would be caught dead in the standard black dress and headscarf that their elderly widowed grandmothers constantly wore when they came over from the old country? Damn near none, that’s how many. Immigrant cultures may not always assimilate as fast as we’d like, but they inevitably assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/110 "2010-03-18T17:24:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > True, some immigrant families don’t assimilate at all culturally, but a hell of a lot do, and over a few generations almost all of them do. For example, how many of today’s elderly widows descended from Eastern European immigrants would be caught dead in the standard black dress and headscarf that their elderly widowed grandmothers constantly wore when they came over from the old country? Damn near none, that’s how many. Immigrant cultures may not always assimilate as fast as we’d like, but they inevitably assimilate. was that fashion ever really a doctrinal part of that culture, though? and chicks still wear headscarfs today - it’s just a little passe ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/111 "2010-03-18T17:37:37Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Explain your thought. The fact that Canadian society as a whole can thrive while taking steps to support and preserve a French-speaking minority culture suggests that Quebec similarly might conclude that taking certain steps to accommodate a minority-within-a-minority culture need not be socially destructive. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/112 "2010-03-18T17:40:47Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The fact that Canadian society as a whole can thrive while taking steps to support and preserve a French-speaking minority culture suggests that Quebec similarly might conclude that taking certain steps to accommodate a minority-within-a-minority culture need not be socially destructive. not like the specter of separation wasn’t injurious to canadian culture or society or anything. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/113 "2010-03-18T17:46:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The fact that Canadian society as a whole can thrive while taking steps to support and preserve a French-speaking minority culture suggests that Quebec similarly might conclude that taking certain steps to accommodate a minority-within-a-minority culture need not be socially destructive. You make it sound as if French speaker were somehow grafted onto Canada instead of being primary shapers of the nation and its outlook. You can no more divorce french language/culture from Canada than you could english. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/114 "2010-03-18T17:47:06Z")
[borg] You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. [/borg] ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/115 "2010-03-18T17:47:08Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > You make it sound as if French speaker were somehow grafted onto Canada instead of being primary shapers of the nation and its outlook. You can no more divorce french language/culture from Canada than you could english. um, you may want to re-think this position somewhat. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/116 "2010-03-18T17:48:35Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The fact that Canadian society as a whole can thrive while taking steps to support and preserve a French-speaking minority culture suggests that Quebec similarly might conclude that taking certain steps to accommodate a minority-within-a-minority culture need not be socially destructive. Quebec does take steps to accommodate cultural minorities. This is what we’re talking about here, if you’ve followed. And it’s not a “French-speaking minority culture” either. Quebec is about 80% French as a first language, and at least half of the rest speaks the language as well. And _Quebec_ takes steps to ensure that this remains the case, “Canadian society as a whole” has little to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/117 "2010-03-18T17:55:35Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > um, you may want to re-think this position somewhat. Not really. Canada without Quebec (as we’re using Quebec as a catch all for french speaking culture, influence and over 200 years of shared governmental development) isn’t Canada - it’s something else. ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/118 "2010-03-18T17:56:40Z")
“Line up again or come back another day” is not refusing service. She refused the service offered. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/119 "2010-03-18T17:59:14Z")
Too late to edit. **Grey** ’s paradigm of Canada seems different from mine. From my reading of his two last posts, he sees “Canada” as being an “undistillable” mix of French- and English-language cultures. I disagree; I view “Quebec” as one Canadian culture, centred on the province of the same name and with French as official language, and “Canada” as the other, centred mostly on the other provinces and with English as official language. I would argue that it is possible to divorce one or the other cultures from the whole: they are complementary, but still mix very little. But both these paradigms do not consider either French-language society in Quebec or English-language society in the rest of the country to be minorities. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > not like the specter of separation wasn’t injurious to canadian culture or society or anything. :dubious: What did it injure? (And how is it a “specter”?) > [@Grey](#): > > Not really. Canada without Quebec **(as we’re using Quebec as a catch all for french speaking culture, influence and over 200 years of shared governmental development)** isn’t Canada - it’s something else. (bolding mine) We should not do that, it’s plainly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735/120 "2010-03-18T18:11:12Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Not really. Canada without Quebec (as we’re using Quebec as a catch all for french speaking culture, influence and over 200 years of shared governmental development) isn’t Canada - it’s something else. yeah I’m going to have to go ahead and disagree. If quebeckers (again, the language/culture thing, not the actual people) suddenly ceased to exist, i doubt anyone west of ottawa would care or notice [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/quebec-govt-tells-veiled-muslims-go-to-the-back-of-the-line/532735.md?page=7)