# Question about 9-11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007 "2003-05-23T12:01:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/101 "2003-05-26T11:28:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > In all sincerity, and trying to avoid offending anyone, I would like to know why the American media (if not the people themselves) cannot get over the fact that America was bombed on 9-11. Well, for starters, “the people” are not one homogenous lump over here, you know? There are 280 million of us with a wide variety of positions on any given subject. There is also the question of “media”, and how you define it. If you limit it to TV, yes, the obsession with 9/11 is there, which is why I stopped watching for the most part about 3 months after the attack. I got tired of it. However, radio broadcast a much wider range of views and analysis on the attack, ranging from “Kill them all” to “We richly deserved it”. Our newspapers also tended to be a little more thoughtful and analytical as well (which is not to deny the occassional excess). But abroad our media is represented primarially by TV and I assume those overseas do not get exposed to radio and print from the US to anywhere near the same degree As for “get over it” - what do you mean by that? Forget it happened in entirely? Not a chance in hell. Get back to normal life? I started doing that on September 12 by going back into downtown Chicago to work in a skyscraper. Fact is, some people made it very very clear that they consider us an enemy and they have no qualms about killing us. However we got into that position, it would _stupid_ to simply forget about that. It is also a fact that the attacks, in addition to killing 3000+ people, also impacted our economy pretty badly. (A previous poster said we’re likely to lose a major airline over it. I’d say we’re likely to lose two, and some additional crap imposed on aviation - NOT real security items but politically motivated meddling - is depressing the whole sector. Not to mention the impact on tourism, diverting of resources from one area of government to others causing disruption, and so forth). So… you propose we “get over it” when our economy is in the toilet, Al Quaeda or some remnant of it is STILL clearly at large in the world blowing things up (and we just know they’d like another go at us), and we’re facing loss of civil liberty in our own country as part of the fall out? Sorry, bud, we’re not “over it” because it’s still causing us problems - get it? If the economy were humming along, we were reasonably sure the Bad Guys were either caught or unable to attack us, and our politicians woke up sane one morning yeah, we’d be ready to “get over it” - but not until then. Actually, the US has a pretty good track record of “getting over” outrages and becoming allies, if not actual friends, with former enemies. Just to name a few - the UK (we did fight a couple wars against them), USA vs CSA (our civil war, for all it’s bloody viciousness, was only 5 years long and the peace did NOT degenerate into decades of guerilla warfare), and post-WWII both Japan and Germany. So yes, we are, in fact, capable of “getting over” lots of things - when we’re ready. Not when someone else wants to dictate the time. > [@](#): > > I do not wish to cause offense Well, you did, but you were polite about it and it is a hot button issue. I don’t agree with most of what you posted, but hey, that’s why this is a debate forum, right? > [@](#): > > 1 - Why could the HQ of the most powerful military force in the world not defend itself against 1 unarmed civilian aeroplane ? You know, that is a very good question. Here’s my take on it: The Pentagon is primarially an _office building_. It’s not a fort, it’s an administrative center that actually employs large numbers of civilians to push paper around. Yes, there are some areas that require clearance to enter, the Secretary of Defense and Joint Chiefs of Staff work there, but although it is an important military structure it really does resemble a corporate headquarters for, say, IBM or Microsoft more than a military base. It’s a place to put lots of paper records, for example. The military ownership and use might lead people to think there are heavily armed marines at every corner, but in reality it’s a lot of people sitting at desks pushing paper and typing on keyboards. Therefore, although it is a legitimate military target, it was never fortified to the same degree as many other military installations. In part, this is because our capital has not been invaded by any foreign power since 1812 (those wacky Brits, you know?) and for centuries the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, as well as thousands of miles of our own territory, did serve to adequately protect our country. Obviously, times have changed. As for the “unarmed civilian plane” - well, as pointed out, the Pentagon is about 2 minutes away from a major airport. Clearly, when we set that up, no one was thinking of civilian airplanes as a threat. In retrospect, this seems foolish but hindsight is 20/20. Unlike foresight, which tends to be severely myopic. In fact, the entire US airspace system was designed without thinking of attack by airplane. The only areas heavily watched for “invaders” were the international borders, which have long had special procedures for entering and exiting the country (and which were not as heavily enforced as they should have been). Thus, there was no one watching for an attack originating from _within_ the country. In fact, securing our airspace post-9/11 has been a difficult problem because, as I said, the whole system was put into place without ever considering the idea of a threat from the air. It’s a complicated problem, and would be off topic to address it thoroughly in this thread so I won’t, but basically our defenses didn’t keep up with changing technology. In part, this is because it had been so very long since our mainland was successfully attacked. As demonstrated, a “unarmed civilian plane” such as a 757 does not, in fact, need to be armed to cause a lot of damage. One phrase I heard after the attacks was “poor man’s cruise missle”. > [@](#): > > 2 - How has the American population been duped into thinking that Saddam Hussein has / had anything to do with 9-11 ? Again, we’re not a homogenous mass over here. I haven’t been “duped” at all - the only way in which Saddam and bin Laden are related is that they are both enemies of the US. Do I think they were both dangerous? Yes. Do I think either one of them would have attacked us if he thought he could do so? Yes. Do I think they were ever working together? Hell, no. It’s like all during the cold war when the USSR and China were both communist, both are enemy, but they certainly weren’t allies of each other. Actually the USSR and China probably were more friendly towards each other than bin Laden and Hussein - which ain’t saying much. Does invading Iraq serve the purposes of our current pseudoneo-fascist hawkish administration? You bet. Do I approve, simply because of my citizenship in this country? Hell, no. At this point, I’m far more concerned about what my government plans to do to our civil liberties and ability to move freely than I am about being in a terrorist attack myself. Sure, I could get in the way of a bomb. I could get hit by a bus while crossing the street. What the government does, however, I have to worry about every day. > [@](#): > > The fact remains that all the might of the American Military machine could not catch the one man responsible for the WTC attacks. There was not just one man responsible for the WTC attacks. There were a LOT of people involved, and a number of them died that same day. It’s rather simplistic to say that if Osama bin Laden didn’t exist, or was killed 5 years ago, it never would have happened. The 9/11 attacks were a group effort In truth, the man might even be dead - we blew things up so thoroughly there were no remains left to identify. Or maybe he’s alive. Using the “might of the American military” to go after one man is rather like using arson to elminate the ants in your kitchen. Clearly, it’s not the ideal tool but I’m not sure we had anything more effective to use at the time (or even now). It’s a fairly simple equation - if you punch someone in the nose, you’re likely to get hit in return. If you attack a country they will, most likely, retaliate if they are able to do so. The idea apparently held by these scum-puppies that by attacking America we’d somehow roll over and capitulate was entirely mistaken. If the US is attacked, the US goes to war. It’s always been that way, and probably always will be. In fact, the Japanese tried the “if we attack them maybe they’ll realize our might and go away” tactic in 1941 - it didn’t work then, either. In fact, the major difference between 1941 and 2001 is that we took over Afganistan a heck of a lot quicker than we did Japan. If someone launched an attack today from a particular country XYZ it would be a sure bet that within a very short time the US would attack, invade, and own said country XYZ. This is not going to change. If people don’t like it they can easily avoid this situation simply by not attacking our territory. > [@](#): > > Pretty shabby effort. And how would you have handled things differently? It’s easy to criticize - try solving the problem. Imagine you’re sitting in the Oval Office on September 12, 2001 - what would YOU have done? ---
**Author:** ![Tarantula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e274bd/32.png) [@Tarantula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantula)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/102 "2003-05-26T11:42:24Z")
Broomstick, Sincere thanks for the well-thought out reply. I have no idea what I would have done in GWBs place. Definately food for thought. \*\* Grey \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > Since you’ve had a fair number of replies that seems to run counter to your OP, how about you address them? \*\* I have no desire to “address” (wrong word again) the replies that have been posted. I simply want some views that don’t come from US TV & print media. That’s all. Thanks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/103 "2003-05-26T12:08:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\* Well, after doing what you could to him, let us say that your other neighbor, his freind- make public statements that "he was glad it happened, that she deserved it, that he’d support more such killings, and then he painted a mural of the tragedy on his garage door. Don’t you think that a little ass-whuppin might be in order? \*\* That is complete nonsense, since Saddam Hussein was one of the first to condemn the WTC attacks right after they happened (!!!) The rest is US government propaganda, so no “ass-whuppin was in order” … ---
**Author:** ![OliverH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@OliverH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverH)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/104 "2003-05-26T12:19:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > \*\*(A previous poster said we’re likely to lose a major airline over it. I’d say we’re likely to lose two, and some additional crap imposed on aviation - NOT real security items but politically motivated meddling - is depressing the whole sector. Not to mention the impact on tourism, diverting of resources from one area of government to others causing disruption, and so forth). > \*\* Except, of course, those airlines were in a pretty bad shape BEFORE 9/11 and are going bellyup despite the fact that truckloads of money have been poured over them, not the least as a consequence of the greed of the management, which in the case of AA busted a deal with employees on salary cuts by filling their pockets as best as they could themselves. > [@](#): > > \*\* > It’s a fairly simple equation - if you punch someone in the nose, you’re likely to get hit in return. \*\* The strange thing is that the US seems to think that is true for everyone BUT them. > [@](#): > > \*\* The idea apparently held by these scum-puppies that by attacking America we’d somehow roll over and capitulate was entirely mistaken. > \*\* What makes you think that was the idea they held? > [@](#): > > \*\* > If the US is attacked, the US goes to war. It’s always been that way, and probably always will be. In fact, the Japanese tried the “if we attack them maybe they’ll realize our might and go away” tactic in 1941 - it didn’t work then, either. In fact, the major difference between 1941 and 2001 is that we took over Afganistan a heck of a lot quicker than we did Japan. If someone launched an attack today from a particular country XYZ it would be a sure bet that within a very short time the US would attack, invade, and own said country XYZ. This is not going to change. If people don’t like it they can easily avoid this situation simply by not attacking our territory. \*\* You are comparing apples and oranges. Japan was a country. Al Qaeda isn’t. > [@](#): > > \*\* > And how would you have handled things differently? It’s easy to criticize - try solving the problem. > > Imagine you’re sitting in the Oval Office on September 12, 2001 - what would YOU have done? \*\* You are neglecting that there was precious little criticism about Afghanistan, but the so-called ‘war on terrorism’ is an entirely different ballpark. In that war on terrorism, the US has actively promoted oppression, violation of the law, both local and international, and has, if you count in Iraq, both promoted terrorist recruitment and possibly given terrorists opportunity to get their hands on material to construct a dirty bomb. In the meantime, the US has failed to convict a single defendant on Al Qaeda related charges, while allied countries, using standard law enforcement procedures, have managed to do so (pending appeal). The historic track record is pretty solid that tackling terrorism with military means is counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/105 "2003-05-26T12:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > I have no desire to “address” (wrong word again) the replies that have been posted. I simply want some views that don’t come from US TV & print media. \*\* Then you posted in the wrong forum: please note the name of this one. We don’t take well to people who want to stir things up with no intention of defending their assertions. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/106 "2003-05-26T12:34:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flonks \* > **That is complete nonsense, since Saddam Hussein was one of the first to condemn the WTC attacks right after they happened.** Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Tarantula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e274bd/32.png) [@Tarantula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantula)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/107 "2003-05-26T12:44:53Z")
\*\* Furt \*\* Question - How do you “take well” to something ? Get a fucking dictionary and get out of my face. Thanks all the same ! ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/108 "2003-05-26T12:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*\*\* Furt \*\* Question - How do you “take well” to something ? Get a fucking dictionary and get out of my face. > > Thanks all the same ! \*\* Maybe this will help. The title of this forum is “Great Debates” not “Present some arguments while I go hoist a pint.” The expectation is that you will present your ideas, not merely request those of others. Also, the harsh words, spleen-venting forum is “The Barbeque Pit.” Perhaps you need the dictionary, as “take well to something” is a common usage. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/109 "2003-05-26T12:58:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by furt \* > \*\*Cite? \*\* cite? _sigh_ television the same or the next day, but back then I didn’t think that it would of any importance so soon … ---
**Author:** ![Tarantula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e274bd/32.png) [@Tarantula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantula)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/110 "2003-05-26T13:06:20Z")
Papermache Prince - Common usage perhaps, but incorrect nonetheless. How ironic that for you, that was post number “404”… As for addressing the issues that have been raised, I have made my points already (in my first two posts) and I am not ill-mannered enough to think that repeating myself ad nauseum will make any difference. I am listening to all the arguments that are being presented and will they will help me formulate an opinion. I presume that the posters (yourself apparently excluded) have enough intelligence to remember my points, without me having to repeatedly post them here. Thanks again, though ! ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/111 "2003-05-26T13:49:59Z")
Well lets review \*\*Tarantula’s \*\* replies since he wont. > [@](#): > > • I am NOT trolling. > • You got attacked. Get over it. Get back to what made your country the great place it (for the moment) still is. > • That many guillible people in one country…Too many freaks - not enough circuses. > • How does America explain it’s morbid interest in bombing the shit out of foreign countries? It’s all just murder - I don’t give a fuck if you’re from NY, Kabul or Baghdad. America just got what it has richly deserved. If I may make the distinction - the people who died in the WTC did not deserve it, but America, as a warped global policeman did. > • How does America explain it’s morbid interest in bombing the shit out of foreign countries? It’s all just murder - I don’t give a fuck if you’re from NY, Kabul or Baghdad. America just got what it has richly deserved. If I may make the distinction - the people who died in the WTC did not deserve it, but America, as a warped global policeman did. > • Everytime I look at CNN or the NY Times, they are still banging on about 9-11. I was just wondering if there was some reason for this that I am missing. There obviously isn’t. > • As for the others, I think that some of the posters seem to realise the irony of situation, others don’t. Just what I’d expect. > • I have no desire to “address” (wrong word again) the replies that have been posted. I simply want some views that don’t come from US TV & print media. That’s all. > • As for addressing the issues that have been raised, I have made my points already (in my first two posts) and I am not ill-mannered enough to think that repeating myself ad nauseum will make any difference. I am listening to all the arguments that are being presented and will they will help me formulate an opinion. I presume that the posters (yourself apparently excluded) have enough intelligence to remember my points, without me having to repeatedly post them here. I wouldn’t expect you to regurgitate your views. I would expect in GD that you would either defend and argue your view point or change it based on the answers provided. If you choose to do neither, well then I guess that wraps this thread up. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/112 "2003-05-26T13:51:09Z")
Damn! This was suppose to be the first paragraph. Well lets review \*\*Tarantula’s \*\* replies since his original post. I have snipped the communist and NI ones. Hope I didn’t miss anything. ---
**Author:** ![Tarantula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e274bd/32.png) [@Tarantula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarantula)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/113 "2003-05-26T14:01:17Z")
\*\* Grey \*\* Certainly does. The only thing you missed is the point. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/114 "2003-05-26T14:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*Tee - we know you are in no hurry to get over it. That’s why American tourism has been the big seller it has been, in the last 18 months… Enjoy throwing it all away… \*\* Yup, they’re staying away in droves. Remind me again why we need a _lottery_ in order to regulate the numbers of Irish, et al who wish to move to this undesirable land? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/115 "2003-05-26T15:08:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tarantula \* > \*\*\*\* Grey \*\* Certainly does. The only thing you missed is the point. > > Enjoy. \*\* Perhaps you’ll help us then, by clarifying your point. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/116 "2003-05-26T15:13:27Z")
Oh what the hell. What was the point? Was it just to stir people up or to engage in debate? ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/117 "2003-05-26T15:16:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grey \* > \*\*Oh what the hell. What was the point? Was it just to stir people up or to engage in debate? \*\* It seems like **tarantula’s** having a hard time getting over 9-11. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/118 "2003-05-26T15:20:59Z")
No, its a reasonable debate. “Why was 9-11 so traumatic for Americans” would be/has been interesting. Its just that the OP is not engaging in the debate, that we’ve been trying to build. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/119 "2003-05-26T15:25:57Z")
Tarantula, > [@](#): > > jjimm - to be fair, I immediately shun anyone stupid enough to care about who owns NI. After 31 years of savagery, anyone who gives a fuck must be either a moron or a psychopath. Great if Ireland is 32 counties, and great if it’s not. Either way it’s not worth one life, let alone hundreds. Do you live in a small hole or something? Do you really think that its all just about “who owns the north?” If attitudes like yours were prevalent, Equal Rights wouldn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007/120 "2003-05-26T15:37:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flonks \* > \*\*That is complete nonsense, since Saddam Hussein was one of the first to condemn the WTC attacks right after they happened (!!!) > > The rest is US government propaganda, so no “ass-whuppin was in order” … \*\* Why do you give credence to the words of Saddam Hussein. That’s like quoting Charles Manson on abortion issues. So he condemed the WTC attack. That ,and a dollar, won’t get you a 50 cent cup of coffee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-9-11/177007.md?page=7)