# Question about a bearded lady/hermaphrodite **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 16, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026 "2010-09-16T22:57:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/1 "2010-09-16T22:57:49Z")
There’s this news story about a man who was looking for his biological mother who turned out to be a bearded lady. Story [here](http://www.aolnews.com/weird-news/article/bearded-lady-reunites-with-long-lost-son/19631453). The article had some details I was curious about: > [@](#): > > According to Wheeler, doctors examining her for Guinness said she has a male bone structure, with half her hormones being male. Doctors thought it would be impossible for her to give birth, but she became pregnant, and baby Richard was delivered by cesarean section in 1977. Half male hormones? Male bone structure? I know that there can be some weird stuff out there but is this really possible? I know that there only rarely true hermaphrodites among humans, so I just assumed that she had some ambiguous parts. But from her face, she looks like a guy. Not like a woman with a beard would look to me. Which also raises a question that I’ve always wondered about–what exactly makes us able to identify a face as male or female? Is it that she has a beard that makes me assume male, or is it the male hormones/bone structure the article was talking about…? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/2 "2010-09-16T23:59:49Z")
My first guess would be that she’s a [chimera](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29). ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/3 "2010-09-17T00:09:07Z")
It was common a century ago for hermaphrodites to exhibit themselves as half-female, half-male. Sometimes they would dress with one side of the body in male clothing and the other in female clothing. They would lift weights and exercise on side of their body and wear a breast prosthesis (or gaff) on the other. Grow their hair long on one side and short on the other. If they had a beard, they would shave one side of their face. Most of the bearded women I’ve seen, however, sport scant beards indeed. A few famous ones had luxious chin locks, however, Madame Clofulia, Annie Jones to mention a couple. When they weren’t working they’d chose the sex of their most comfortable affiliation and dress that way. I saw one of the last “true hermaphrodites” on display in a carnival in the early Sixties when people were still allowed to chose their professions without political correctness interferring. It remains somewhat of a question whether s/he was authentic although she did appear in the nude and invited physical investigation. I declined. A true hermaphrodite is somewhat of a rareity but it is suggested by recent news that the occurence may be increasing with all the hormones we are ingesting via our water supply. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/4 "2010-09-17T01:24:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Half male hormones? Male bone structure? I know that there can be some weird stuff out there but is this really possible? I know that there only rarely true hermaphrodites among humans, so I just assumed that she had some ambiguous parts. But from her face, she looks like a guy. Not like a woman with a beard would look to me. Which also raises a question that I’ve always wondered about–what exactly makes us able to identify a face as male or female? Is it that she has a beard that makes me assume male, or is it the male hormones/bone structure the article was talking about…? True hermaphrodites are rare but they do occur. More likely, she suffered from adrenal hyperplasia which causes overproduction of sex hormones and can result in a woman being born with ambiguous genitals and developing excess facial hair. On the other hand, it could be something else. So the mom is likely intersex but leaning sufficiently female internally that she was able to conceive and carry a child to term. “Male bone structure” as a concept does exist. Male skeletons tend to have certain characteristics female skeletons do not and vice versa. In the facial region, these differences include, aside from facial hair, the angle of the jaw near the ear, how prominent/well developed the brow ridges are (one of the pictures of Ms. Wheeler shows that she does have more prominent brown ridges than normally found in a woman) and some other subtle details in involving angularity of the bone structure and fat distribution. Ms. Wheeler does clearly have a masculine looking face, even aside from the beard. That’s what you’re picking up on, even if you aren’t consciously aware of what’s triggering that feeling and you aren’t knowledgeable enough to analyse the details of her face and go “Ah-ha! That’s it!” ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/5 "2010-09-17T03:10:47Z")
Interesting. **Broomstick** , do we know what makes a male bone structure happen? I mean, I know obviously most men will have it…but is it hormones, or chromosomes, or some mixture…or is it something that we just don’t really know yet? \*\* Tethered Kite\*\*, I remember seeing someone like that in Tod Browning’s _Freaks_. I read somewhere that in order to have that one breast, the “hermaphrodite” would inject silicon into it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/6 "2010-09-17T03:20:27Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Interesting. **Broomstick** , do we know what makes a male bone structure happen? I mean, I know obviously most men will have it…but is it hormones, or chromosomes, or some mixture…or is it something that we just don’t really know yet? Male hormones. Genetics affect it to some degree - some families have bone structures that overall lean more towards one end of the male/female spectrum than the other, but male hormones are normally the strongest influence. Even after puberty, women normal, feminine looking women exposed to excessive levels of male hormones (by disease or by, for instance, taking muscle-building steroids) will have their faces masculinize. People born with XY chromosomes but a complete inability to utilize male hormones (known as AIS females, or XY females) will usually have faces _more feminine_ than the average woman with XX chromosomes because male hormones have no effect on their body (normal women do have some level of male hormones, just not nearly as much as female hormones). So - XY chromosomes, but completely female appearance externally. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/7 "2010-09-17T03:27:26Z")
Oh yes, I remember learning about AIS in my psychology of sexuality course in college. Can females be exposed to male hormones in utero? And is that why some women just look more…mannish than others? And does a lack of exposure to male hormones explain why some men look more feminine? (I’m assuming here that looking more feminine is the default, as it is with female development in general, and that exposure to male hormones is what yields the masculine look.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/8 "2010-09-17T03:40:17Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > A true hermaphrodite is somewhat of a rareity but it is suggested by recent news that the occurence may be increasing with all the hormones we are ingesting via our water supply. Wait a gosh-darn minute. This ain’t IMHO, so let’s see those cites for the hormones we are ingesting and the water supplies that contain them or I’m gonna call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/9 "2010-09-17T03:50:50Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Can females be exposed to male hormones in utero? And is that why some women just look more…mannish than others? And does a lack of exposure to male hormones explain why some men look more feminine? (I’m assuming here that looking more feminine is the default, as it is with female development in general, and that exposure to male hormones is what yields the masculine look.) Yes to all of the above. Women can be exposed in utero, in childhood, at puberty, and after puberty to higher than normal male hormones. The causes range from medication mom is on, to accidental exposures in childhood (certain testosterone supplements used by men with low hormone levels can be absorbed through the skin. “Keep out of reach of children” becomes vary important), abnormal hormone production, and certain metabolic disorders or even tumors. Of course, “normal” is a _range_ - some women naturally have slightly higher male hormones than average yet still are considered entirely normal. Likewise, there’s a range for normal in men and men who tend to fall on the lower end of the spectrum tend to look more feminine - but a lot of other factors such as exercise that develops muscles can offset a somewhat more feminine than typical male face. Lean faces tend to look more masculine than rounded ones, so weight and fat to muscle ratio can affect appearance. Yes, feminine is he default. On the other hand, a eunuch castrated as a young boy will still acquire some male characteristics (they tend to be even taller than the average man, for example). Even in the absence of hormones chromosomes have an effect. (Women with AIS tend to have the average height of a man rather than a woman, or are even taller, as another example) ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/10 "2010-09-17T06:17:08Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I saw one of the last “true hermaphrodites” on display in a carnival in the early Sixties when people were still allowed to chose their professions without political correctness interferring. I’m pretty sure political correctness had nothing to do with my chosen profession. Did it yours? What law is it exactly that makes being a hermaphrodite on display illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/11 "2010-09-17T16:16:59Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Tethered Kite\*\*, I remember seeing someone like that in Tod Browning’s _Freaks_. I read somewhere that in order to have that one breast, the “hermaphrodite” would inject silicon into it. That was Josephine Joseph. Prior to silicone paraffin or fat were injected with various degrees of success! ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/12 "2010-09-17T22:59:47Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > > [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > > > I saw one of the last “true hermaphrodites” on display in a carnival in the early Sixties when people were still allowed to chose their professions without political correctness interferring. > > I’m pretty sure political correctness had nothing to do with my chosen profession. Did it yours? > > What law is it exactly that makes being a hermaphrodite on display illegal? I believe political correctness probably influences language and behavior in nearly every job in America. It’s an involved story and I’m not going to take time to provide you with specifics. It’s a total hijack! A few googles on prohibition of exhibition of human oddities will provide you with the information you are seeking. There may be more articles on the sideshow history sites. The laws vary from state to state but are generally alike. Presently the only sideshows which are in operation in the states are “working acts” such as fire-eaters and various other talented folks. Obviously the underground still thrives and of course there are the medical schools. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/13 "2010-09-17T23:10:21Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > > [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > > > A true hermaphrodite is somewhat of a rareity but it is suggested by recent news that the occurence may be increasing with all the hormones we are ingesting via our water supply. > > Wait a gosh-darn minute. This ain’t IMHO, so let’s see those cites for the hormones we are ingesting and the water supplies that contain them or I’m gonna call bullshit. Okay. Here’s a start. Programs I’ve listened to on Public Radio. Any more you’ll have to ferret out on your own. Not a bad thing for people to know about. > **[Home | Minnesota Public Radio](https://www.mpr.org)** > > Minnesota Public Radio is one of the nation's premier public radio organizations, operating a regional network of more than three dozen stations in Minnesota and its neighboring communities. Sorry. Link is broken. Go to Minnesota Public Radio and search “hormones in water supply.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/14 "2010-09-18T00:18:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Presently the only sideshows which are in operation in the states are “working acts” such as fire-eaters and various other talented folks. You don’t spend much time on the Internet, do you? There are still plenty of people still making a living by displaying their physically abnormal bodies; all that’s changed is the venue. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/15 "2010-09-18T04:40:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Presently the only sideshows which are in operation in the states are “working acts” such as fire-eaters and various other talented folks. > > You don’t spend much time on the Internet, do you? There are still plenty of people still making a living by displaying their physically abnormal bodies; all that’s changed is the venue. With apologies to **Freudian Slit** for the off-topic. Are you talking about the _self-inflicted_ physically abnormal bodies? Such as extreme body modification, obesity, the sexually well-endowed/enhanced? I’m not aware of any in the US who are making money in an entertainment venue from _genetic_ abnormalities. I suppose anything’s possible on the web but chances are good that if they exist some effort would be made to deter them. I’m talking about the old-time circus freak acts who were put out of business because it appeared to some that they were offensive to the public sensibilities or being exploited. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/16 "2010-09-18T16:38:07Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > > [@Musicat](#): > > > > Wait a gosh-darn minute. This ain’t IMHO, so let’s see those cites for the hormones we are ingesting and the water supplies that contain them or I’m gonna call bullshit. > > Okay. Here’s a start. Programs I’ve listened to on Public Radio. Any more you’ll have to ferret out on your own. Not a bad thing for people to know about. > > …Go to Minnesota Public Radio and search “hormones in water supply.” I did. And [here’s what was said:](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/09/ap_probe_finds_drugs_in_drinking_water/) > [@](#): > > A vast array of pharmaceuticals – including antibiotics, anti-convulsants, mood stabilizers and sex hormones – have been found in the drinking water supplies of at least 41 million Americans, an Associated Press investigation shows. > > To be sure, **the concentrations of these pharmaceuticals are tiny, measured in quantities of parts per billion or trillion, far below the levels of a medical dose.** Also, utilities insist their water is safe. (my bold) So suggesting that “hormones” in our water supply is the cause of any dangerous health trend is just irresponsible, much like scaring people about using cellphones near their heads because they emit EMF. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/17 "2010-09-18T18:37:44Z")
My comment was a casual aside and it’s okay with me that you are comfortable that our water supply is safe. There’s considerable research occurring at present that indicates otherwise. I believe **Freudian Slit’s** question has been answered unless someone wants to challenge your answer. So if you’d like to argue the veracity of the possible harm to humans of pharmaceuticals in the water why don’t you start a thread in great debates? I’m not interested in arguing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/18 "2010-09-18T18:45:50Z")
> [@](#): > > With apologies to Freudian Slit for the off-topic. > > Are you talking about the self-inflicted physically abnormal bodies? Such as extreme body modification, obesity, the sexually well-endowed/enhanced? I can’t vouch for the country of origin, but off the top of my head, I’ve seen video of a woman with three breasts, and pictures of people with tails. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/19 "2010-09-18T21:41:46Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > My comment was a casual aside and it’s okay with me that you are comfortable that our water supply is safe. There’s considerable research occurring at present that indicates otherwise. Since this is GQ, I asked for that research, and all you provided was a cite that didn’t support your position in the slightest. One bad cite does not “considerable research” make. > [@](#): > > I believe **Freudian Slit’s** question has been answered unless someone wants to challenge your answer. So if you’d like to argue the veracity of the possible harm to humans of pharmaceuticals in the water why don’t you start a thread in great debates? I would certainly do that, except for your immediately following statement: > [@](#): > > I’m not interested in arguing with you. So what would be the point? You can’t back up your wild-ass accusations and you don’t want to talk about it. Let’s go to the circus instead. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026/20 "2010-09-19T00:15:26Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Let’s go to the circus instead. Sorry, I never accompany folks who call me “wild-assed.” 😛 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-a-bearded-lady-hermaphrodite/554026.md?page=2)