Question about ADA and service animals

[Esprise_Me]

@Arcite

How is it fraud? The only definition of an ESA is “an animal concerning which a doctor or therapist has written a letter saying it’s an ESA.”

Where are you getting your definition? Mine comes from the US Department of Housing and Urban Development:

What Is an Assistance Animal?

An assistance animal is an animal that works, provides assistance, or performs tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability, or that provides emotional support that alleviates one or more identified effects of a person’s disability. An assistance animal is not a pet.

(Bolding mine. Note that the term “assistance animal” is an umbrella term that includes both service animals and ESAs, and they clearly both apply only to persons with disabilities.)

https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/assistance_animals

Here’s a better analogy. If my friend is disabled and I borrow her placard to park in a disabled space, that’s fraud. If I lie to my doctor and say I’m unable to walk more than a few feet to get a placard, that’s also fraud. If I’m genuinely disabled but then fully recover and keep using my placard for convenience, that’s also fraud. It doesn’t matter that the placard is the only thing I need to park in a handicapped spot without getting a ticket; the fraud is in how I got it. With those fake ESA letters, someone is committing fraud–either the “patient” for pretending to be disabled, or the doctor for giving them a letter even though they admit they aren’t.

@Arcite

@Esprise_Me

Sure, but he’s still a service dog. He doesn’t lose his status; he can’t be prevented from entering establishments in the future. The only remedies are after-the-fact, whereas if it’s not a service animal, the business owner can say no in the first place.

Even there, the only reason he’s a service dog is that you say he’s been trained to perform a task that helps you with your disability. What really is a service dog, anyway? There’s no universally-agreed-upon point at which an animal is considered to have been adequately trained, there’s no governing body that licenses or registers service animals, or that defines what exactly a disability is or what kind of tasks assist a person with a disability. If you say your dog is a service animal and I disagree, there’s no higher authority or third party that can resolve our dispute. The ADA just says your word is sacrosanct.

That is one of the problems I was pointing out. There are laws that limit who can have a service animal or ESA (persons with disabilities), and there’s a legal definition of a disability (a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities), and there are laws against lying about having a disability in order to smuggle your pet into places they aren’t allowed (see link below), but when it comes to enforcement, options are limited because there’s no official process for verifying any of this. Another problem is that, even if you’re truly, indisputably disabled, and your dog truly performs a life-saving service, there’s still no requirement that he be trained to do (or refrain from doing) anything else.

Penalties for Using a Service Dog or Emotional Support Animal Under False Pretenses | Nolo.

@doreen

Seems to me that if a municipality can exclude a service animal based on that particular animal’s history, I can probably refuse to allow the dog that bit a customer on Tuesday to come into my store on Wednesday. ( and TBH, it’s almost certainly a fake anyway)

Right now, the law does not specifically grant you that right. I do like your chances in court if you got sued for denying entry to a dog that just bit someone yesterday. And if he’s a fake, all the better; it’ll likely come out in discovery. But this goes back to the issue of “what you can get away with” vs. “what is actually allowed, right now.” I anticipate that, with enough dog bites, we’ll see a reckoning and change in regulations similar to what happened with ESAs on airplanes.

[simster]

@Esprise_Me

But I can’t make the service dogs jump through any of those hoops.

I didn’t see that in the list of requirements.

[Esprise_Me]

Didn’t see what in what list?

[Arcite]

@Esprise_Me

Where are you getting your definition? Mine comes from the US Department of Housing and Urban Development:

OK, that’s what an assistance animal is according to HUD. But is there any federal law saying “a person shall be guilty of fraud if he presents his animal as an ESA despite not being disabled” or a “a doctor shall be guilty of fraud if he writes an ESA letter for a patient who is not actually disabled?”

Who decides whether someone is disabled, anyway? When it comes to getting governmental benefits, it’s a judge. And I’ve met plenty of patients who receive SSDI, and claim it’s for, say, major depression, even though they are not in a major depressive episode most of the time. Many such people have told me that if you just keep applying for disability, you may get rejected the first few times, but eventually you’ll get it.

[Esprise_Me]

You have got to be kidding. I gave you cites, you still haven’t given any for your ridiculous assertions to the contrary. Put up or shut up.

[Sunny_Daze]

@Arcite

Many such people have told me that if you just keep applying for disability, you may get rejected the first few times, but eventually you’ll get it.

I need cites on this.

[doreen]

@Arcite

Many such people have told me that if you just keep applying for disability, you may get rejected the first few times, but eventually you’ll get it.

Even if that’s sort-of-true (and I doubt it) - that doesn’t mean they aren’t disabled. My father was paralyzed on one side of his body, was initially rejected and only got approved after an appeal.

[DocCathode]

I had massive depression and was sleeping 16 hours a day. I got rejected at least 4 times.

[Sunny_Daze]

Still waiting to see @Arcite’s cites for how “easy” it is to get SSDI.

[Arcite]

@Esprise_Me

You have got to be kidding. I gave you cites, you still haven’t given any for your ridiculous assertions to the contrary. Put up or shut up.

This is awfully harsh. I haven’t called anything you’ve said ridiculous or told you to shut up. I’m simply asking if the legal system provides for a person to actually be charged with/convicted of fraud solely for having an ESA letter for their pet when they don’t have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities.

@Sunny_Daze

I need cites on this.

Patients have told me this in person. I can’t provide cites for that.

@doreen

Even if that’s sort-of-true (and I doubt it) - that doesn’t mean they aren’t disabled. My father was paralyzed on one side of his body, was initially rejected and only got approved after an appeal.

Yeah, I’m not saying that getting rejected–even multiple times–is proof that the person isn’t legitimately disabled. And I never said it was easy–it can take years of appeals, disability attorney’s fees, during which time the person could be homeless or barely eking out an existence–but ISTM, based on the population I’ve seen, that if you just keep appealing, and keep not working, the system will eventually give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you can’t work, and grant you disability. Some of these people have schizophrenia, some destroyed their spines with years of hard physical labor, but some are drug-addicted panhandlers with no reason, if the went to rehab and got clean, they couldn’t work.

[chela]

Thank you for your clarity, yours and a few others have been helpful in understanding the difference in how the dogs should be classified etc.

And I can see who is getting a little hot under the collar and ramping up their replies to a hostile level.

BBQ pit time?