# Question about black powder firearms **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233 "2012-05-08T01:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/21 "2012-05-08T17:02:58Z")
Yes, but the point was: if (excuse clumsiness) a phone store advertises “smart phones (like Android), feature phones, and iPhones,” they are perfectly allowed to. But just because they or Apple insist that the iPhone is in a separate category from smart phones for advertising purposes does not make it true. They both make calls and can access the internet, and the majority of 9mm and .45 pistols fire one round per trigger pull, no matter what nomenclature the government normally used. So you can insist on calling it an automatic, but that doesn’t mean that a website should sell it in a different section from other pistols. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/22 "2012-05-08T17:10:52Z")
Are you looking for historical accuracy or modern convenience. Surely technology has progressed since 100 years ago. I would think you could package a charge of powder in a sealed plastic pouch so it could be insulated against hydrophilic and acid-generating tendencies, sealed and stable long term, yet thin enough skin that a cap would set it off. Of course, if the laws for powder replica guns are the same as regular guns, all this is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/23 "2012-05-08T17:12:03Z")
You’re fighting a century of tradition. In any case, this thread is about black powder firearms. Here’s the reply I’ve just received from DoL: > [@State of Washington DoL](#): > > Because black powder pistols meet the definition of a pistol/firearm under state law, a black powder pistol is treated the same way as a modern pistol and all the same paperwork and background checks are required. The only time the pistol transfer form and background checks are not required by state law is for Antique firearms and shotguns/rifles. > > RCW 9.41.010 (1) **‘Antique firearm’** means a firearm or replica of a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. > RCW 9.41.010 (7) **‘Firearm’** means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder. > RCW 9.41.010 (13) **‘Pistol’** means any firearms with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. > I believe part of the confusion with black powder pistols stems from the federal definitions, on the federal level black powder is considered an antique firearm and no background check or paperwork is required however, because state and federal laws differ you would go by whichever law is more strict and in this case it’s state law that is more strict. Because we require the forms and background checks to be completed under state law the dealers are required to follow normal procedures for selling a black powder pistol just as they would if they were selling a modern pistol. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/24 "2012-05-08T18:14:22Z")
Did anyone else notice there seems to be a discrepancy between the DoL respondent and the text of RCW 9.41.010 (1)? Black powder pistols are treated the same as modern ones and require the same paperwork (and waiting period) as modern ones – unless they are ‘antiques’. But the RCW 9.41.010 (1) definition of ‘antique’ includes replicas. Take a typical BP revolver. Fixed ammunition? No. Pre-1898? Yes. Fixed ammunition not readily available? Does not apply. So by definition, a replica Colt or Remington muzzleloader is an ‘antique’ and should not be regulated as a modern firearm. Only according to the DoL respondent, they are. Here are a couple more emails: > [@State of Washington DoL](#): > > Not all black powder firearms meet the definition of an antique firearm. If any black powder pistols are made after 1898 they would not be an antique firearm and would require the pistol transfer application and background checks to be completed. In order for a firearm to be considered an antique firearm it must meet the full definition as set in RCW 9.41.010 (1), if it does not meet the full definition it is treated as a modern pistol. When I pointed out to her that replicas meet the definition in RCW 9.41.010(1), she replied: > [@State of Washington DoL](#): > > If your firearm meets the state definition of an antique firearm then you are not required to complete the paperwork or do a background check. If the dealer required it he may have misunderstood the state law with regards to the definition of an antique firearm. I have asked for further clarification. The State of Washington may be reading the section as requiring replicas themselves to have actually been made prior to 1898, instead of merely requiring that replicas be replicas of firearms made prior to that date. If that’s the case, then why mention replicas at all? Because any ‘replica’ (read: ‘counterfeit’) made before 1898 is an antique. Personally, I’m not willing to become a test case. I’ll post any replies I receive. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/25 "2012-05-08T19:03:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Did anyone else notice there seems to be a discrepancy between the DoL respondent and the text of RCW 9.41.010 (1)? I noticed that too. In my state, my modern replica of an 1851 Navy revolver does not count as a “handgun” because it is a cap and ball type. If the design was modified to shoot cartridges, then it would require handgun paperwork and all of that. RCW 9.41.010 (1) seems to make a similar distinction. It seems that Washington’s DoL is in the habit of telling people that they need the paperwork even though the law says that they don’t. See this thread on another forum, for example: [http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?72757-Black-powder-revolvers-in-WA-State-score-one-for-us](http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?72757-Black-powder-revolvers-in-WA-State-score-one-for-us)! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/26 "2012-05-08T19:12:46Z")
Here is the final word I’ve received: > [@State of Washington DoL](#): > > Unfortunately I am unable to tell you a yes or a no if a firearm would meet the definition of an antique firearm. All you need to do is look at the definition, if the firearm meets the full definition of an antique firearm then no background checks or pistol transfer applications are required. So they don’t seem to know. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/27 "2012-05-08T19:16:45Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > It seems that Washington’s DoL is in the habit of telling people that they need the paperwork even though the law says that they don’t. See this thread on another forum, for example: > > [http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?72757-Black-powder-revolvers-in-WA-State-score-one-for-us](http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?72757-Black-powder-revolvers-in-WA-State-score-one-for-us)! Interesting. I’m going to post the DoL letter here from your link. > [@](#): > > This letter was sent to all firearms dealers in Washington State addressing the issue that you have brought to our attention. Enclosed is the letter that was sent out on January 25th, 2010. Dealers are no longer required to fill out the pistol transfer form according to RCW 9.41.090 (7). > > Thank you for your input and close scrutiny of the law which we all should be abiding by. > > Bruce W. Tanaka > Firearms Unit Program Manager > Dept. of Licensing > Business and Professions Division > 360-664-6616 > [firearms@dol.wa.gov](mailto:firearms@dol.wa.gov) The last time I purchased a black powder revolver was before 26 Jan 2010. Looks like there may have been some clarification in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/28 "2012-05-10T11:27:21Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Now I’ve already got a few long guns - .222 Remington, **.45-70 Martini Henry,**.22 LR pump gun, and so forth. (Bolding mine) Unless someone’s started making modern reproductions that I don’t know about (or you’ve got a rechambered rifle), the Martini-Henry was not chambered for .45-70; but rather the .577/450 cartridge. Ballistically the two cartridges are very similar from what I understand, though. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > If you look at U.S.-issued service manuals, the Colt Government Model is called ‘Pistol, Caliber .45, Automatic’. Like it or not, the nomenclature for an auto-loading pistol is ‘automatic’. British designation for a number of self-loading handguns (at least back in the day) describes them as “Automatics” too - the term refers to the idea they automatically reload themselves. To be fair, the official designation for semi-auto handguns during WWI at least was “Pistol, Self-Loading”, but the contemporary ads I’ve seen for the guns describe them as “Automatics”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/29 "2012-05-10T15:18:51Z")
Oh, yeah… I was sent a copy of Mr. Tanaka’s letter. It’s the same one posted earlier by **Daylate**. The thing is, it merely uses the definition of ‘antique’ that is in RCW 9.41.010 (1), which I pointed out in post #24 was a little ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/30 "2012-05-10T19:22:23Z")
I’d also be worried about percussion caps falling off especially if you’re trying to rush. ---
**Author:** ![Sasquatch\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8491ac/32.png) [@Sasquatch\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sasquatch_1)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/31 "2012-05-11T01:30:48Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > By definition, a _burglar_ is stealing from an unoccupied home. If a resident is home (to hold the .60 caliber gun), it is a _robbery_. Like most laws, this varies by location, you can’t make a flat pronouncement like this. In my experience, it’s not generally true either. The most basic definition of burglary is unlawfully entering a dwelling/residence to commit a crime. Under the US UCMJ, entering unlawfully into an unoccupied residence, during the day, is only housebreaking. Robbery is generally larceny done by means of assault of a person, so if you are in someone’s house, and threaten or attack them in order to steal stuff, that would add on robbery, but wouldn’t change the original offense of burglary. And if someone is home but you never see them while there, robbery wouldn’t come into it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/32 "2012-05-11T04:06:44Z")
> [@](#): > > (Bolding mine) Unless someone’s started making modern reproductions that I don’t know about (or you’ve got a rechambered rifle), the Martini-Henry was not chambered for .45-70; but rather the .577/450 cartridge. Ballistically the two cartridges are very similar from what I understand, though. Your right - never thought of that in my original message, but the rifle was rechambered for .45-70 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/33 "2012-05-11T08:26:36Z")
> [@Daylate](#): > > Your right - never thought of that in my original message, but the rifle was rechambered for .45-70 I’d be _very_ careful firing modern commercial ammo through it all the same - the Martini action is incredibly strong but I don’t think it’d handle .45-70 nitro (smokeless powder) loads well. The .577/450 round was a black powder cartridge, and while I believe modern nitro .45/70 rounds are deliberately down-loaded to be about the same as their historic blackpowder counterparts, it’s still something I’d be mindful of. If you have a look on the right hand side of your Martini-Henry, you’ll see markings which tell you when and where it was made, along with the Mark of rifle (I-IV)too. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/35 "2012-05-11T12:53:32Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Yes, but the point was: if (excuse clumsiness) a phone store advertises “smart phones (like Android), feature phones, and iPhones,” they are perfectly allowed to. But just because they or Apple insist that the iPhone is in a separate category from smart phones for advertising purposes does not make it true. They both make calls and can access the internet, and the majority of 9mm and .45 pistols fire one round per trigger pull, no matter what nomenclature the government normally used. So you can insist on calling it an automatic, but that doesn’t mean that a website should sell it in a different section from other pistols. .45 ACP = Automatic Combat Pistol or Automatic Colt Pistol, depending on who you ask. It describes the round, as opposed to the .45 LC (Long Colt) or .45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol), not the action of the gun. It’s just a name. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233/36 "2012-05-12T03:07:15Z")
Yeah, that was my point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-black-powder-firearms/621233.md?page=1)