# Question about British English and some lack of "the" and "a"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 23, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734 "2013-06-23T22:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/41 "2013-06-25T21:11:44Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am not sure what you have in mind here. “Give me one with cream on,” and “Give me the one with cream on,” are both correct in British English, but have different meanings. The first means “Give me one from among those several ones that have cream on, not one of the ones that don’t.” The second means “Give me the one unique one that has cream on, not any of those several others that don’t.” I am reasonably sure, after having lived for over 20 years in America, that American English works exactly the same way here. Americans will not say “Give me the one with cream on,” if there are several ones with cream on available, They will, quite properly, drop the “the”. I’m pretty I’ve heard this as I wrote it. I think it was meant as 'Give me one with cream on it." I used to game with a guy who was very British, and I’ve heard him say a lot of the Britishisms mentioned in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/42 "2013-06-25T22:58:07Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > This. It’s obnoxious and not how Americans speak. If its being deliberately as an affectation, I agree. But, like I said, when I’ve heard it, it’s been unintentional. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/43 "2013-06-25T23:08:25Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > This. It’s obnoxious and not how Americans speak. I’m an ignorant foreigner, genuinely curious: what should they say? why is it obnoxious? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/44 "2013-06-25T23:11:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m an ignorant foreigner, genuinely curious: what should they say? why is it obnoxious? “In college” is the American way of saying “in university.” ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/45 "2013-06-25T23:54:37Z")
> [@choie](#): > > One of my favorite Britishisms that you don’t find in the U.S. (at least I’ve never heard it) is “I’m going down the pub” or “She’s going down the shops.” I suppose it’s possibly been shortened from “I’m going down t’the pub” as mentioned above, but I’ve never heard the slightest hesitation to indicate there’s a missing word; it sounds very much a complete phrase. Just heard it on _Gavin and Stacey_. Admittedly that’s not a great example since the people who said it were Welsh, and have their own idiosyncracies (e.g. “Where to’s she now?”) but still, it’s definitely something I’ve heard in British films and TV. > > This usage seems to differ from the “There’s trouble down at t’ mill” (to use another _Monty Python_ sketch as an example, oy, can I do anything but quote UK comedies?), where I can hear the sort of hesitation between “at” and “mill” where the word “the” would go. It’s sort of like the double consonant in Italian, which is differentiated from its singular version via extra emphasis and pause before the repeated consonant. (E.g., the “t” in “Pasta” properly being said differently from “Spaghetti,” though of course in the U.S. we don’t bother with such niceties as pronouncing the double “Ts” correctly.) Where I grew up, in NE Hampshire (urban SE England) a lot of people would say they were going “Up the town” meaning to the town centre but this was decried as “common” by those who spoke RP. Now I get on a bus and ask for a ticket for (t’)City meaning the city centre. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/46 "2013-06-26T00:09:23Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > If past discussion on this topic is any indication, it’s because the listener thinks the speaker is affecting Britishisms deliberately, either to sound more intelligent than (s)he actually is, or because (s)he thinks that Europe is superior to America in every way, and is expressing that belief through language. I’ve never heard that so succinctly explained before. Thank you. Note that this is also the same rationale used for using words from foreign languages when there are more commonly used alternatives in the original language. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/47 "2013-06-26T00:21:43Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I go to church, he goes to school, you go to jail, we go to market, y’all go to town, they go to work. I have never met someone in America who says “go to market”. I have seen it in older children’s books, but never heard it used in speech. Always it is “go to **the** market”, or more commonly “go to the store”. That’s weird. School (and college) is a weird one, because it is often used to refer to someone not physically there. As in, if you were visiting someone you hadn’t seen in years and they had a small child running about, you might ask “is he in school?” Well, he obviously isn’t right now. The question is really asking if he attends school. In America, “university” is a place rather than an … experience. You got to college, but you do not go to university, and even going to **the** university isn’t really something students do. Someone going to the university is a visitor, while the people who belong there are in college. Which is a horrible misuse of the terms university and college. The University of Connecticut is not a college, it is a _collection_ of colleges, including the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences, the College of Fine Arts, the College of Engineering, and the College of Social Work, to name just a few. Perhaps we in the states prefer to thing of a hospital as a place where _everyone_ is “just visiting”. ??? ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/48 "2013-06-26T00:26:34Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > ] Also see “two thousand seven hundred thirteen” vs “two thousand seven hundred and thirteen”. In elementary school they taught us that the word “and” in a number denotes a decimal point. Thus the first number you gave would be 2713, while the second would be 2700.13 ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/49 "2013-06-26T00:31:52Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I’ve heard “get washed” used for “wash your hands, it’s dinnertime”. I’ve heard that a bit, but it’s a fairly simple colloquialism. “Go wash up” means you should wash yourself, while “get washed” indicates that I don’t really care who does the washing, so long as a state of having been washed is achieved. 😉 I faintly recall being young enough that washing up for dinner was something that someone else would have to do **to** me. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/50 "2013-06-26T00:41:18Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Is it in fact the case that, in otherwise similar circumstances, when they happen to choose to use the word “university” instead of “college” an American will never say “My daughter is in university,” but always “My daughter is in the university,” or is this irregularity of usage only associated with the word “hospital”? In my experience, no American would ever say either of those things. The best you might get is “she’s at the University,” in response to a question about where your daughter is right now. I agree with the poster above, this particular irregularity arises because in almost every context where a Briton will use the word “university”, and American will use instead the word “college”, even when it is clearly wrong to do so. > [@](#): > > Incidentally, the guys on “big Bang Theory” refer to “the university” all the time. (snip) It has crossed my mind that Caltech might have raised some objection to their name being mentioned too often on the show (although it no secret that the show is meant to be set there). Really? I thought it was set in New York. Wikipedia agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/51 "2013-06-26T00:43:43Z")
> [@Recusant](#): > > I’m not sure if it’s representative of a particular region, but does the institution/ideal reason apply in other uses, such as “set two extra places at table” or “in future, I’ll need it in writing”? I agree. Neither of those sounds American. Set **the** table, in **the** future. ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/52 "2013-06-26T00:47:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Nah, there’s loads of words. Prom and Homecoming are two that have begun to drop their articles when they’re being referenced in their ‘official’ capacity. I can’t speak to British English but I’m sure that there are many other nouns with varying degrees of formality that drop articles. The hospital disagreement is just the most popular and obvious one. “Going to Homecoming” I have heard. “Going to prom” is something I hadn’t ever heard until it came up on an episode of Teen Titans where the speaker was clearly unfamiliar with the phrase. I went to _the_ prom. I went to two of them: the Junior Prom, and then the Senior Prom. If my school has held Homecoming, I probably wouldn’t have attended, but I might have gone to the Homecoming dance. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SpyOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SpyOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpyOne)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/53 "2013-06-26T00:59:00Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > You go to market; I go to the store. > You go to town; I go to the city. > You go to work; I go to the office. **Pigs** go to market; I go shopping. I go into town. The city I may either go to, or into, depending upon my mood. I would go to the office if I worked in one, as I work in a store, saying that I am going there could be confused with #1 above, so I will have to settle for going to work. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/54 "2013-06-26T02:22:19Z")
choie, I disagree with you. You may listen to a lot of British TV shows, but I lived in England for three years. My experience was that those phrases that I listed were only known in some British dialects. They were not used in the majority of British dialects. I don’t consider it nitpicking at all to point out that they aren’t typical of most British speech. Read the OP. Leaper is trying to make a general rule about when Brits and Americans use “the” in some expressions. Those phrases are not relevant to how most Brits speak. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/55 "2013-06-26T06:00:39Z")
Yes **Wendell**. I’m sure you’re right. The time _I’ve_ spent over in England, my British friends, and, as I’ve said, the scads of UK books and media in all forms I’ve imbibed over 46 years, are as nought. You’d rather stick to the OP, although the OP doesn’t even refer to the particular phrase I’m talking about–the conversation has drifted a bit to different usages between UK and U.S. English. Because I didn’t _think_ I’ve been imagining all the times I’ve heard this usage (“down the pub” or “down the shop”), I did a bit o’ research. Turns out the first definition of “pub” in the ever-so-obscure [Cambridge Dictionary](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/pub) includes the informal “down the pub.” Oddly enough, it omits the disclaimer, “N.B., only a very few people use this form, we’re including it just in case you’re visiting one of the three tiny villages dotted throughout the British countryside where you might be confronted by this rare phraseology.” Or if Cambridge is too much of an upstart to be trusted, let’s go to a more established entity and see what Oxford has to say. Their [Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary](http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/down_1), for non-native speakers, says under the definition of “down,” that “(i)n informal British English, **to** and **at** are often left out after **down** in this sense: _He’s gone down the shops._” Interesting that they say “_often_ left out” rather than “_sometimes left out, well almost never really_.” They too must cater to the miniscule minority. So must the 8.9 million Google hits for “down the pub.” 😃 Anyway, that’s all I’ll say. It is a silly hijack anyway for such a charming topic! To some of the folks saying it’s pretentious to use Britishisms or non-English words when “American” words exist… well, I don’t doubt that’s true for several people, because there certainly are some self-conscious and pretentious folks out there who think British = “better.” But I think many of us just use whatever’s familiar. I co-host a podcast about webseries and webfiction serials, many of which run in what we in the U.S. would call “seasons” (as in TV). I am _constantly_ having to stop and correct myself, or at least explain what I mean, when I inevitably say “series,” as the British do, instead of “season.” It’s not an affectation, it’s just what I’m used to hearing / reading, as I pay so much more attention to British television and entertaiment, and both read and know many UK writers. I guess all this just reinforces the term. Same reason I’ll say “I’ll ring you” and inflect my questions downward, rather than upward as Americans do. (Embarrassing geek admission: when my sister catches me doing the latter, she often responds with, “Yes, Beverly,” because actor Gates McFadden, who played Beverly Crusher on _ST:TNG_, often used the same sort of inflection in her dialogue when it came to questions.) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/56 "2013-06-26T06:34:54Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > **Pigs** go to market; I go shopping. > I go into town. The city I may either go to, or into, depending upon my mood. Really? I go downtown. Then I go home. Why complicate things? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/57 "2013-06-26T09:40:59Z")
choie writes: \> The time I’ve spent over in England, my British friends, and, as I’ve said, the \> scads of UK books and media in all forms I’ve imbibed over 46 years, are as \> nought. I’m not saying that the reading, viewing, and visiting you’ve done are nothing. I’m saying that it’s not sufficient for you that, as you say: \> Seriously, I am familiar with a metric fuckton of British accents and syntax \> thanks to both being a crazy Anglophile and someone who watches/listens to \> more UK-based than U.S. programs, and reads more British than American \> authors. And I’m fifteen years older than you, I lived in the U.K. for three years, I’ve visited there seven times since coming back, and I’ve also read and seen a lot of British books, movies, and TV shows. So you’re not the only one in this thread with a lot of experience in British dialects. I’m only saying that my experience with British dialects is at least as good as yours. In my experience, “down the pub” is not used in most British dialects. I don’t think you understand how dictionaries work. A dictionary can list a phrase without feeling the need to point out how common or uncommon it is. The fact that they don’t include a disclaimer that it’s not common doesn’t prove that it’s therefore common. In particular, the OED considers its mission to be recording _every_ usage, no matter how rare. They don’t include disclaimers about how rare a phrase is. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/58 "2013-06-26T10:09:52Z")
Well I think I trump both of you for life experience. I’m fifty years old and have lived in the UK for, umm let me see now… fifty years. “Down the pub” is a construct that is used and recognised across multiple UK dialects. It is however slightly less likely to be used higher up the social scale where “to” would be preferable to “down”. As cites I give you: [A website dedicated to promoting the British pub (so would presumably choose a URL that is cross-dialectical](http://www.itsbetterdownthepub.com/about-campaign) [The lyrics of a song by 70’s punk rockers Sham 69 (Cockney/Mockney)](http://www.plyrics.com/lyrics/sham69/hurryupharry.html) [Someone’s Flickr feed (example of North-East dialect: “ **Doon** the pub”)](http://www.flickr.com/photos/itmpa/8204677/) [A Guardian article (The Guardian is a left-leaning newspaper predominantly read by well educated readers at the higher end of the social scale)](http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2012/may/18/coming-down-the-vegetarian-pub) [Article on a Welsh website - somehow appropriately the article is about taking Welsh language lessons… down the pub!](http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/language-lessons-down-the-pub-1893210) ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/59 "2013-06-26T12:39:26Z")
I’ve just started a poll over at a British message board I frequent about “down the pub” and so on. So far, no one has said “I’ve never heard that! How freakish, how absurd!” 🙂 > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > And I’m fifteen years older than you, I lived in the U.K. for three years, I’ve visited there seven times since coming back, and I’ve also read and seen a lot of British books, movies, and TV shows. So you’re not the only one in this thread with a lot of experience in British dialects. I’m only saying that my experience with British dialects is at least as good as yours. In my experience, “down the pub” is not used in most British dialects. The folks in my other thread are asking which areas you frequented, as they seem to find the usage fairly common. (This is a board devoted to British comedy, I should mention, but they have a highly trafficked “general topic” area as well, which is where I posted the question.) And I never said my knowledge of dialect was better than yours or anyone else’s, where did you get that? You’re the one whose posts imply superior knowledge–I’m just giving my BritCred (FWIW) and explaining that I’ve got widespread enough knowledge to have heard it in a variety of places. Oh dear, now your posts have moved from superior to condescending, since now you say: > [@](#): > > I don’t think you understand how dictionaries work. A dictionary can list a phrase without feeling the need to point out how common or uncommon it is. The fact that they don’t include a disclaimer that it’s not common doesn’t prove that it’s therefore common. In particular, the OED considers its mission to be recording _every_ usage, no matter how rare. They don’t include disclaimers about how rare a phrase is. Um, yes, but Oxford does quite literally affirm that the “to” in the phrase is _often_ omitted in casual speech. I’d say that positive statement trumps its not using the word “rare.” And the Cambridge reference to “down the pub” is quite literally the first example they give! Usually less frequent forms are placed lower down in the list of definitions–a convention with which one who obviously knows how dictionaries work should be aware, no? Gosh, if “down the pub” makes you outraged, this’ll probably give you a coronary: One fellow says the phrase in _his_ locality (Nottingham) is increasingly being truncated to “go pub” or “I went Asda.” So now even “down” is being removed! Try not to drop your monocle in your tea, there’s a good chap. [And here’s a little song just for you.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2xdCvhvyqY) (1979 performance by a group formed in Hersham, in Surrey.) On preview: Ah, thank you, **RobDog**. I was hoping an actual live British person would chime in here. And I see you brought out the Sham 69 as well! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734/60 "2013-06-26T12:54:36Z")
I saw this thread whilst on holiday. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-british-english-and-some-lack-of-the-and-a/661734.md?page=4)