# Question about Captain America Civil War (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876 "2018-02-15T15:37:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/21 "2018-02-15T18:50:20Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Absolutely, on both counts. Remember, the whole Ultron/Sokovia affair was Tony’s fault, and nobody else’s. He doesn’t want to be able to do that kind of thing anymore. Tony cannot rebel against the person in charge if he is the person in charge - he also can’t deny guilt if its truly his fault. His whole reason for signing on to the accords was to let the blame fall on ‘someone else’ and to give him someone to tell ‘fuck off’ to. Here -let me put you on hold. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/22 "2018-02-15T18:58:35Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I will say my issue with Civil War is I felt on the issue of the accords Steve and Tony are on the wrong sides. They set the movie up as best they could but Steve’s “I know best” attitude just didn’t feel right to me. Except they have been building to this transposition of world views since Phase 2. Steve Rogers was originally the devoted patriot in _Captain America: The First Avenger_ and Tony Stark was the maverick skeptic in _Iron Man_ and _Iron Man 2_, but in their successive films starting with _Iron Man 3_ and especially _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_, they both experienced challenges to their respective views, with Rogers becoming skeptical of “people with agendas” like the UN or World Security Council (and the infiltrated former SHIELD) and Stark coming around to the notion of needing to control ‘enhanced’ individuals and technologies like Extremis or the supersoldier formula which produced destructive monstrosities like The Hulk (and of course, Bucky) which present threats to humanity. As for Bucky, Secretary Ross makes it clear that he’s never going to give him a fair (or likely any) trial. The other rogue Avengers are jailed in The Raft with no apparent legal proceedings. Bucky is no more responsible for his actions as the Winter Soldier than Banner is for the Hulk, but he is too dangerous to be free, and Ross isn’t probably going to accept anything done to reverse the Zola conditioning. So, there is really no legal outlet for Bucky to recieve a fair trial or rehabilitation. At the end of the film, Stark is no longer interested in just imprisoning Barnes or protecting the public; he wants revenge for the death of his mother by the Winter Soldier who was under the control of Hydra. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/23 "2018-02-15T19:02:02Z")
Well, considering he’s part of a group called “The Avengers” I’d say that Tony Stark is not only in the right, but has an _obligation_ to avenge his parents’ death. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/24 "2018-02-15T19:25:24Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Yeah. Bucky murdered people in the United States. There’s zero question about that. Bucky should face a trial and let the justice system decide if “I was brainwashed by Hydra” is an adequate defense. Instead, Bucky gets judged and exonerated by his best friend, Captain America. We factually know he _was_ brainwashed by hydra. The brainwashing equipment is right there in the bunker. Cap knows it’s real. Why should he throw his friend on the “mercy” of a justice system that commonly makes mistakes? If you _see_ cops planting drugs in your friend’s house, and your friend just got home and you have some means of getting your friend out of the country (you have superpowers), do you a. Take your friend to freedom (“Wakanda” exists, and it’s a secret civilization, so it’s totally feasible for him to stay free forever) b. Take your friend to the same corrupt police you just saw planting the drugs and plan to get him off with “the cops planted them” as a defense. The probability of “I was brainwashed” working in court is basically zero. Especially given that the evidence is probably all secret super-tech from a comic book. You might as well kill your friend yourself. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/25 "2018-02-15T20:00:27Z")
SamuelA: > [@](#): > > Take your friend to freedom (“Wakanda” exists, and it’s a secret civilization, so it’s totally feasible for him to stay free forever) I don’t see Steve’s bringing Bucky to Wakanda as an attempt to enable him to evade justice indefinitely. His priority is to keep Bucky from being a danger to fall under the control of other evil people, and the Wakandans have the best ability to keep him on ice, or possibly to develop the technology to de-program him. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/26 "2018-02-15T20:10:32Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Except they have been building to this transposition of world views since Phase 2. Steve Rogers was originally the devoted patriot in _Captain America: The First Avenger_ and Tony Stark was the maverick skeptic in _Iron Man_ and _Iron Man 2_, but in their successive films starting with _Iron Man 3_ and especially _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_, they both experienced challenges to their respective views, with Rogers becoming skeptical of “people with agendas” like the UN or World Security Council (and the infiltrated former SHIELD) and Stark coming around to the notion of needing to control ‘enhanced’ individuals and technologies like Extremis or the supersoldier formula which produced destructive monstrosities like The Hulk (and of course, Bucky) which present threats to humanity. > > …snipped… > > Stranger As I read this analysis, part of the point of the story is the conversion of world views of major protagonists, so therefore, the movie is better for the apparent contradiction. Sounds good to me. Back to OP, as others have said upthread, I think Cappy was acting correctly to shield Bucky, and Tony was not acting quite correctly, but appropriately, as an aggrieved son. (BTW, adding justification to those who would claim that these super beings should submit to some higher power.) Regards, Blistery Bluey Barnacley ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/27 "2018-02-15T20:20:46Z")
You know what, I think i have been convinced. When I first saw Civil War it didn’t feel right to me. But the arguments above make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/28 "2018-02-15T20:37:40Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > If you _see_ cops planting drugs in your friend’s house, and your friend just got home… Bucky wasn’t framed though. He literally killed Stark’s parents. It would be more like if your long-lost best buddy returned from his time in a cult, during which he murdered some people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/29 "2018-02-15T20:55:52Z")
It’s more like your buddy was forcefully injected with drugs before being put behind the wheel of a running car, and then hit some pedestrians. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/30 "2018-02-15T21:03:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s more like your buddy was forcefully injected with drugs before being put behind the wheel of a running car, and then hit some pedestrians. Not that I agree but, ok sure. And at that point 99.995% of us would be on trial for vehicular manslaughter and pleading our case. We don’t all have Captain America to shield us from justice though. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/31 "2018-02-15T21:05:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s more like your buddy was forcefully injected with drugs before being put behind the wheel of a running car, and then hit some pedestrians. Was the car on a treadmill? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/32 "2018-02-15T21:07:26Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Was the car on a treadmill? I assume some other superhero was holding up the driving end and then dropped it once Bucky was strapped in and pointed at the hapless victims. You’re going to want a rear-wheel drive car for this trick. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/33 "2018-02-15T21:31:29Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Not that I agree but, ok sure. And at that point 99.995% of us would be on trial for vehicular manslaughter and pleading our case. We don’t all have Captain America to shield us from justice though. 😛 Yes; however, the concept behind most superhero movie worlds is that the system - the police, the military, the courts system - just isn’t equipped to deal with the weird shit that superheroes face, which is why superheroes are needed in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/34 "2018-02-15T21:33:11Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Was the car on a treadmill? No, but the drugs are Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/35 "2018-02-15T21:44:02Z")
I have a bigger problem with Rogers and Barnes defeating an armored Stark, truth be told. He should have been casually able to splatter both of them. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/36 "2018-02-15T21:52:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have a bigger problem with Rogers and Barnes defeating an armored Stark, truth be told. He should have been casually able to splatter both of them. Eh, both Tony and his suit were still pretty beat up from the airport fight, while the super soldier serum allowed Bucky and Cap to recover pretty quickly. They’re both better fighters and Bucky’s arm is pretty powerful. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/37 "2018-02-15T22:04:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have a bigger problem with Rogers and Barnes defeating an armored Stark, truth be told. He should have been casually able to splatter both of them. Beta technology, enough said. I mean the real reason is that it’s a comic book universe, and major characters are worth concrete amounts of money. To kill off a major character like Captain America means losing out on potentially billions of dollars in profits from future movies with him in it. Technically vision should have just chopped all the rebel’s legs off with his eye lasers during the airport fight earlier. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/38 "2018-02-15T22:07:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have a bigger problem with Rogers and Barnes defeating an armored Stark, truth be told. He should have been casually able to splatter both of them. I’ll of course grant that Stark was trying to kill Barnes. Was he trying to kill Rogers? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/39 "2018-02-15T22:09:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have a bigger problem with Rogers and Barnes defeating an armored Stark, truth be told. He should have been casually able to splatter both of them. Steel isn’t strong, boy. Flesh is stronger. Now contemplate this on the tree of woe. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876/40 "2018-02-15T23:03:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have a bigger problem with Rogers and Barnes defeating an armored Stark, truth be told. He should have been casually able to splatter both of them. Marvel Rule #1: The Hero’s Power will be exactly as strong or weak as needed to facilitate the current plot; hence why Cap is challenged in a kickboxing fight with a mercenary in _Winter Soldier_ but can kick trucks and throw armored soldiers around like rag dolls in _Civil War_. The Iron Man suit is basically just as capable (or has some pertinent weakness) as the film its in needs it to be. Also, Cap always wins because, [“I can do this all day,”](http://es.fanpop.com/clubs/captain-america/images/39150004/title/can-all-day-fanart) especially when faced with a physically superior opponent. It’s his [character aspect](https://fate-srd.com/fate-core/types-aspects) that gives him points to spend on succeeding at seemingly impossible tasks. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-captain-america-civil-war-spoilers/808876.md?page=3)