# Question about demonstration teams (Blue Angels, etc.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 14, 2006, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713 "2006-06-14T18:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/21 "2006-06-16T05:59:35Z")
[QUOTE=pilot141] Plus this year the T-Birds have the first-ever female demonstration pilot on tour. [/QUOTE] Yaow. Talk about a crowd pleaser. What is it with the Air Force and amazingly good looking female officers? :eek: Captain [Nicole Malachowski](http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-918312.php) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/22 "2016-10-09T13:01:22Z")
Sneak pass==“low transition?” Which makes sense, if less sexy. But still sneaky. A new one, from Blue Angela, slow mo at the end. Watched it over and over. How low is that airplane? > **[Watch: Awesome slow motion low transition by Blue Angels](https://fightersweep.com/6292/watch-awesome-slow-motion-blue-angels-low-transition/)** > > "Not a bad start to the day !" says Blue Angels Lead Solo Ryan Chamberlain when he completes the low transition & then goes 70 degrees nose up ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/23 "2016-10-09T13:20:42Z")
I see the Red Arrows are on tour; not in North America, but Asia including China. > [@](#): > > Bangladesh > 11 October: Dhaka (Flypast) > > Singapore > 13 October: Singapore (Flypast) > > Malaysia > 14 October: Kuala Lumpur (Flypast with Typhoon aircraft) > 17 October: Kuala Lumpur (Display) > > Vietnam > 20 October: Da Nang (Overnight stop) > > China > 23-25 October: Shanghai (Ground events)28-29 October: Hong Kong (Ground events) > 1-6 November: Zhuhai airshow (Displays) > > Thailand > 11 November: Hua Hin (Displays and flypasts) > > India > 16 November: Hyderabad (Display) > 17 November: Bangalore (Flypast) > > Oman > 20 November: Muscat (Display) > > Bahrain > 23 November: Bahrain (Flypast) > > UAE > 24 November: Abu Dhabi The Corniche (Display) > 27 November: Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix (Display or flypast) > > Kuwait > 28 November: Kuwait (Flypast) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/24 "2016-10-09T13:24:16Z")
Yanno, guys, it’s pretty impressive this low and slow Zombie Pass that takes ten years… ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/25 "2016-10-09T13:41:33Z")
yeah … **Leo** ’s kinda slow on the uptake sometimes. To answer his question: I estimate the tail feathers were 8-10 feet off the ground at the point of closest approach. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/26 "2016-10-09T14:19:09Z")
Hey, I’m the one that first mentioned the word/term “low transition.” Which bit of information should have been used to dispel ignorance ten years ago (I’m looking at you, fighter jocks). And I added the question mark because a) if it’s not a query it’s just a MPSIMS (which a healthy portion of GQs start out); b) I actually was wondering, but not enough to spell it out, but wouldn’t mind if said fighter pilots informed me/us, that “low transition” is the “official term”; respect for all posters, etiquette in this case, that others may know more; that some posters (one in particular) love nothing more than to leap in and look for the question, a question, any question, which as we all know must have question marks. So there. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/27 "2016-10-09T14:22:21Z")
**LSLGuy** , barreling along in level flight so low, do ground effects ever come into play? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/28 "2016-10-09T14:48:36Z")
Ballpark, ground effect becomes discernable at 1 wingspan above the ground. And increases as you get lower. For an aircraft with short wingspan and relatively high wing loading like a fighter the effect is pretty small. Was that aircraft in ground effect? Yup. Some. Given everything else going on the net effect was pretty small. For example, had he goofed the descent and overshot too low, any ground effect cushioning would have been way too little way too late to save him. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/29 "2016-10-09T14:59:18Z")
I didn’t think of “cushioning” as a ground effect, but of course it is, and sounds like a nice and comfy one. I always thought of things like up-wash (if that’s a word) screwing up a hovering F-35 or helicopter. So then I had this image of either that, or with this moving vehicle, a sudden bizarre change such as flying over a sudden removal of that condition, such as flying over huge sinkhole (or canyon). If he dips a little bit in a canyon it’s no big deal, but would he feel a shimmy? Actually, the down-wash from a hovering F35 or helicopter makes the situation different from the jets in horizontal flight. Does a low flying helo pilot feel it significantly? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/30 "2016-10-09T14:59:27Z")
BTW just spent a week with the T-Birds buzzing the office as practice for this weekend’s show and was able to see the full rehearsal. The show is happening just off the shore with much the audience standing on the cliff of the San Juan Walls so the planes are almost eye level to the public in some of the low passes. Having an F16 peel up on afterburners almost on top of you lets you know how tight the window frame is hung ;). Nice concert of car alarms from the parking lot, too. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/31 "2016-10-09T15:08:35Z")
I watched the Blue Angels on a sailboat in Golden Gate bay, yesterday. Boy, was that fun! The Blue Angels passed really close and at one point they did sort of a stall really low over the boats on the bay with all of their exhaust covering the boats. That was pretty gross. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/32 "2016-10-09T15:36:00Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I didn’t think of “cushioning” as a ground effect, but of course it is, and sounds like a nice and comfy one. I always thought of things like up-wash (if that’s a word) screwing up a hovering F-35 or helicopter. So then I had this image of either that, or with this moving vehicle, a sudden bizarre change such as flying over a sudden removal of that condition, such as flying over huge sinkhole (or canyon). If he dips a little bit in a canyon it’s no big deal, but would he feel a shimmy? > > Actually, the down-wash from a hovering F35 or helicopter makes the situation different from the jets in horizontal flight. Does a low flying helo pilot feel it significantly? All good thinking. Sometimes the cushioning effect is nice; other times it’s a problem. Landing too fast on a too-short runway you can find yourself hard pressed to push the airplane through ground effect and down onto the ground soon enough to get stopped before running off the end. There are also interesting effects as the wing downwash bounces off the surface and changes the airflow the tail is flying though. A few feet above touchdown is not a good place for the airplane to suddenly want to nose over or rear back as the tail gets into either its own ground effect or the wing’s changed outflow field. A similar effect occurs in reverse on takeoff as you lift off and climb away. The recirculation of air around a hovering helicopter can be an issue. It can lead to the often fatal condition called [Vortex ring state - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring_state). For operations over dirt or dusty surfaces you’ve also got the hazard of [Brownout (aeronautics) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownout_(aeronautics)). The Army wrecks a few helos and kills a few folks every year this way. In the case of the F-35 and other VTOL jets you’re not operating over dirt, only over prepared surfaces. You’re more worried about the high speed exhaust blasting up any ground debris. Or even beginning to peel up the pavement. Which solid objects can impact and damage the aircraft. You also have a concern about ingesting your own engine exhaust. Just like the old joke about horses and used oats, the same air doesn’t burn as well the second time through. And yes, flying off the edge of a canyon at extreme low level can result in a dip that feels just like it looks. But generally speaking that’s not a real issue. You’d have to be in either in a big airplane or at a ground skimming altitude or both. And whatever wind is blowing towards/away from the canyon wall will probably induce a larger change than will the comparatively small change in ground effect. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/33 "2016-10-09T15:51:22Z")
Fascinating. Thank you. Your last graf: obligatory Road Runner over canyon reference. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/34 "2016-10-09T22:29:35Z")
Leo, thank you for replying to this 10 years after I made that amazingly cringe-worthy comment a year before I enlisted. :smack:😃 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713/35 "2016-10-09T22:47:31Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Sneak pass==“low transition?” No. At least, not necessarily. The key component of the airshow “sneak pass” is that the crowd’s attention is diverted away from the direction the solo comes from so no one knows it’s there until it’s pretty much already past. In the linked video, there is no attempt to sneak up on the crowd (other aerial activity in the same direction as the low approach), so it doesn’t count as a sneak pass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-demonstration-teams-blue-angels-etc/360713.md?page=1)