# Question about English football promotion/relegation **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 17, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496 "2013-08-17T15:57:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/1 "2013-08-17T15:57:09Z")
Question from an ignorant American… so imagine a team that is in the 4th or 5th level of English Football, and through some flukish turn of events (bought by an eccentric super-rich guy who randomly hires an unknown coaching prodigy or something) just flies up the ranks, and gets promoted each year and 5 years later is going to get promoted to the EPL. But it’s still only 5 years away from being a 5th division team. Is there a requirement that the team have a certain size and level of quality in its facilities and so forth in order to play in the EPL? Could they be told “well, you earned promotion, but your rinkydink stadium only seats 10,000 spectators, doesn’t have the right wiring for HDTV broadcasts, and that’s just not good enough” or something like that? Also, out of curiosity, has anything like that level of promotion ever happened? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/2 "2013-08-17T16:52:46Z")
There are a [whole bunch of standards](http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20130704/appendix-1_2293633_2128158) that a stadium has to meet. There’s a whole passle of stuff on TV and communications, but I couldn’t see HDTV specifically mentioned. The seating capacity needs to be 5,000. Oldham Athletic is the (ex-) premiership club with the smallest ground. Boundary Park holds just over 10,000 fans. The most rapid promotion (and equally rapid sinking) was probably [Swindon Town](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swindon_Town_F.C.). The went from the Fourth Division in 1986 to Premier League in 1992. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/3 "2013-08-17T16:56:40Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > There are a [whole bunch of standards](http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20130704/appendix-1_2293633_2128158) that a stadium has to meet. There’s a whole passle of stuff on TV and communications, but I couldn’t see HDTV specifically mentioned. So what happens if a team earns promotion and its stadium doesn’t meet those standards? I mean, I’m sure in a practical sense the team would upgrade the stadium, but if it didn’t, would some other team get promoted instead? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/4 "2013-08-17T17:00:55Z")
And I just remembered that a team _was_ refused promotion due to its ground not being up to snuff. [Stevenage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevenage_F.C.) were refused entry to the Football League in 1996, despite being promoted from a lower tier. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/5 "2013-08-17T17:04:31Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Question from an ignorant American… so imagine a team that is in the 4th or 5th level of English Football, and through some flukish turn of events (bought by an eccentric super-rich guy who randomly hires an unknown coaching prodigy or something) just flies up the ranks, and gets promoted each year and 5 years later is going to get promoted to the EPL. But it’s still only 5 years away from being a 5th division team. > > Is there a requirement that the team have a certain size and level of quality in its facilities and so forth in order to play in the EPL? Could they be told “well, you earned promotion, but your rinkydink stadium only seats 10,000 spectators, doesn’t have the right wiring for HDTV broadcasts, and that’s just not good enough” or something like that? > Also, out of curiosity, has anything like that level of promotion ever happened? Yes, each different level has certain requirements for facilities. The requirements for a Premier League stadium are more focused on media facilities and making sure that they are equipped for international broadcasts. Back-to-back promotions to the Premiership have happened a few times (Norwich, Southampton and Man City off the top of my head), but 3 consecutive promotions to the Premier league has never happened and I’m not sure if any team ever got to the old First Division (i.e. what became the Premier League in 1992) by virtue of 3 promotions. I’m sure though 3 or more consecutive promotions has happened at some point as the English League System has been around for a while and the English Football Pyramid currently has 24 levels and roughly 7,000 teams (so technically a team playing in the Mid-Sussex Football League Division 11 could get to the Premiership in 24 years time). Wimbledon FC is the archetypal example of a team rising through the levels of the levels. In the ealry 1960s they were playing in the Isthmian League, before entering the Southern League in the 1964 which by the 1970s they completely dominated and were elected (in those days automatic promotion/relegation didn’t operate between all levels) to the Football League proper and started in the Fourth Division in 1976. By 1978 they won their first promotion to the third division, though by yo-yo’ed between the division somewhat and by1982 were back in the Fourth Divison once again. In 1983 they won the Fourth Division and in 1984 they achieved a back-to-back promotion to the Second Division and in 1986 were promoted to the First Division (i.e. the equivalent of the Premiership). To cap off their amazing rise they won the FA Cup in 1988. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/6 "2013-08-17T17:20:20Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So what happens if a team earns promotion and its stadium doesn’t meet those standards? I mean, I’m sure in a practical sense the team would upgrade the stadium, but if it didn’t, would some other team get promoted instead? Yes, they wouldn’t be promoted and usually another team would be promoted in their stead. This has happened a number of times in the English football League (though no team has ever not met the stadium criteria for promotion to the Premier League AFAIK). In some leagues which have different stadium standards to the leagues below them, there’s a grace period to reach those standards. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/7 "2013-08-17T18:17:16Z")
IIRC when Fulham were promoted in 2001,they had to play in another ground. Until their own stadium was brought up to speed. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/8 "2013-08-17T19:55:27Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > Wimbledon FC is the archetypal example of a team rising through the levels of the levels. In the ealry 1960s they were playing in the Isthmian League, before entering the Southern League in the 1964 which by the 1970s they completely dominated and were elected (in those days automatic promotion/relegation didn’t operate between all levels) to the Football League proper and started in the Fourth Division in 1976. By 1978 they won their first promotion to the third division, though by yo-yo’ed between the division somewhat and by1982 were back in the Fourth Divison once again. In 1983 they won the Fourth Division and in 1984 they achieved a back-to-back promotion to the Second Division and in 1986 were promoted to the First Division (i.e. the equivalent of the Premiership). To cap off their amazing rise they won the FA Cup in 1988. And of course AFC Wimbledon, founded by the fans abandoned by the original club, entered the ninth tier in 2002 and have now progressed to the fourth tier, where they’ve been for the last two seasons. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So what happens if a team earns promotion and its stadium doesn’t meet those standards? I mean, I’m sure in a practical sense the team would upgrade the stadium, but if it didn’t, would some other team get promoted instead? This has happened in Scotland, I believe in was Falkirk who won the second flight and were denied promotion because their ground was too small. No team was promoted in their place, one less team was relegated instead. In the EPL Fulham did, I believe, have to ground-share with QPR while their ground was done up. Grants are available to help, and obviously the EPL means a decent income anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/9 "2013-08-17T20:12:51Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > And of course AFC Wimbledon, founded by **the fans abandoned by the original club** , entered the ninth tier in 2002 and have now progressed to the fourth tier, where they’ve been for the last two seasons. What does that mean? How does a club’s success–which their fans presumably were rooting for–lead to abandonment? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/10 "2013-08-17T20:47:48Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What does that mean? How does a club’s success–which their fans presumably were rooting for–lead to abandonment? Wikipedia says that the original Wimbledon FC relocated. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-english-football-promotion-relegation/666496/11 "2013-08-17T21:14:01Z")
Milton Keynes offered them a better deal and they left…and changed their name to Milton Keynes. Of course some fans felt betrayed and the English are a stubborn lot. They (MK Dons v AFC Wimbs) in the FA Cup last season iirc.