# Question about feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637 "2009-09-26T10:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/21 "2009-09-26T21:58:49Z")
That is possibly the most useless hypothetical situation ever written up on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/22 "2009-09-26T22:00:40Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Hmm. The discussion is getting a little off track. My original question is not about the relative strength of men vs women. > > Let me try a different example: > A woman sues a boxing commission to be allowed to box with a man, since the purses are higher. She also demands that she get a full share of the purse. They allow her to do it. During the match, she tells her opponent, “You can’t hit me, I’m a girl” and proceeds to beat him silly. After a few rounds, the man decides he would rather hit a girl than lose to a girl, so he fights back, and wins. After the match, she sues him for assault and uses the “women are weaker than men” argument: since he is stronger, he should have held back and let her win since he knew he could seriously hurt her. > > So, in this case: > > 1. She uses the “both sexes are equal” argument when it benefits her to do so. > 2. She uses the “women are not equal to men” argument when it benefits her to do so. > > So, to restate my original questions: > > 1. If feminism is about equality, shouldn’t women stick to the “both sexes are equal” argument in all things? Doesn’t the “women are not equal to men” argument weaken feminism? > 2. Am I misogynist for saying so? The feminist claim (to the extent that there is “a” feminist claim–there’re lots of different kinds of feminism…) is not that “both sexes are equal” but rather “People shouldn’t be discriminated against based on gender.” “Women are generally weaker than men” does not weaken feminism, since it doesn’t contradict the claim that “people shouldn’t be discriminated against based on gender.” Since some women are stronger than some men, discrimination based on strength does not amount to discrimination against women. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/23 "2009-09-26T22:03:03Z")
And what if, on the way to the court hearing, the man gets in a car accident and is trapped burning to death in the front seat. If the woman comes across this tragic sight, will she be strong enough to pull the trigger on the gun with a single bullet that she carries in her purse for emergencies? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/24 "2009-09-26T22:03:35Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > if they say ‘well you’re the man so you have to…,’ see above. Really? Women say this to you, in America, in present times, in all seriousness? Enough women say this to make sense of your having drawn up a policy for how to respond to it? Really? No. Not really. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/25 "2009-09-26T22:05:36Z")
What if Hitler was a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Neverending\_Elbow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e274bd/32.png) [@Neverending\_Elbow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neverending_Elbow)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/26 "2009-09-26T22:05:55Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > So, in this case: > > 1. She uses the “both sexes are equal” argument when it benefits her to do so. > 2. She uses the “women are not equal to men” argument when it benefits her to do so. > > So, to restate my original questions: > > 1. If feminism is about equality, shouldn’t women stick to the “both sexes are equal” argument in all things? Doesn’t the “women are not equal to men” argument weaken feminism? > 2. Am I misogynist for saying so? In the example you gave everybody was stupid, except for the woman, who was a conniving bitch. You do know that even male boxers are segregated by weight? I don’t think the presented scenario could ever take place. But then the question you are asking gets a bit vague, and I would be happy if you could make it even clearer. As I understand it now either women should be treated exactly like men and nothing, no sporting event, no drug tests, medical procedures, nothing should be sex segregated OR women can agree that in some thing they are different, like being generally physically weaker and agree to taking a secondary position in society. I think the problem is with how ‘equal’ is understood. Feminism is about women being equal to men, but it’s not about women being the same as men. If ever a woman got a position as a business manager by arguing, that she must be promoted, or she will make a big stink about there being no women managers in the firm, and THEN, when something goes wrong starts crying and trying to dump it on men, that says nothing about feminism, but about one woman being a manipulative opportunist. If a woman gets promoted to manager because she is good, and then continues to do her job, that means she should be a manager, and feminism enters the picture only as what made it possible for a woman to be promoted, and judged on qualities that do not count her biological sex as a dis-qualifier. And generally, anybody using any ideology to promote themselves, and then abandoning it when convenient is doing that ideology a certain disservice, so I don’t see an argument here. But I don’t think you can make a blanket statement about feminism in general based on the actions of some women. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/27 "2009-09-27T04:24:48Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Really? Women say this to you, in America, in present times, in all seriousness? Enough women say this to make sense of your having drawn up a policy for how to respond to it? > > Really? > > No. Not really. Yeah, really, a 26 y/o said it to me a few weeks ago, fuck off ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/28 "2009-09-27T04:34:04Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > That is possibly the most useless hypothetical situation ever written up on the Dope. It’s a doozy but I’ve seen worse. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/29 "2009-09-27T04:56:38Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Yeah, really, a 26 y/o said it to me a few weeks ago, fuck off Either you have a lot to learn about sarcasm, or that 26 y/o has a lot to learn about real life. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/30 "2009-09-27T08:15:48Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What if Hitler was a woman? Mustaches would have a better chance of coming back into style? ---
**Author:** ![Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckler_of_Swashing)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/31 "2009-09-27T10:43:13Z")
It seems like the OP believes that feminism should be held to some kind of standard of ideological purity. It would be great if we could hold all such ideologies to such a standard, but it has never been the case. Yes, there exist women who will happily fluctuate between being rampaging feminazis and poor helpless damsels when it suits them. There are also black racists and there are hypocrites of every stripe. It is just the way some people are. As for your scenario - if you, a male, were asked for help carrying something by a weaker male than yourself, would you not do it? I imagine most men would be happy to help another guy out in such a situation. I would argue that many, though not all, human beings are happy to lend a hand when they can. My housemate moved our TV yesterday, because I could not lift it. I walk my neighbour’s dog, because she is too old to walk it every day. This morning, I held a door open for some guys moving a desk. These things are just part of a general social contract - there is a certain percentage of society willing to lend a hand. When it comes to favours that involve physical strength, there is a statistical likelihood that men will be the ones helping women as they generally have the advantage in that area. This fact only undermines the claim, made only by very few people, that every women is the physical equal of every man. This is just not a claim that is being widely made by feminists or anybody else. If it is your belief that ‘because women claim to be men’s equals, they should never need help carrying anything that could be carried by a man’, I would argue that you are using a definition of equality confined only to physical strength, and thus using - if unwittingly - a strawman argument, since this is not the claim of equality that is generally being made. If you just don’t want to help anyone, that’s cool. That’s your right. And I agree with you that hypocritical feminists are a pain in the arse. But I don’t think the fact that most women cannot carry as much weight as most men undermines feminism to the extent that you seem to think it does. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/32 "2009-09-27T14:19:49Z")
Sexual dimorphism in competency in carrying heavy objects does not means that women are overall any less competent for most jobs. First the dimorphism can be expressed in two overlapping curves, meaning that some women are more able to carry heavy loads than some men. Extrapolating general competency from this is like saying that men shouldn’t be pilots or astronauts because women are better able to physically handle major G forces. In the jobs that I had that did have lifting heavy objects as a component, there were times that I did need help lifting. There were times that I helped men do their lifting too. I found also that we made accommodations that made the job easier and safer for everyone. We decided that the largest servers would not be racked in the top third of the taller cabinets. This made injuries to everyone and damage to the servers less likely. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/33 "2009-09-27T20:29:15Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > . . . fuck off Direct personal insults are prohibited in Great Debates. This is a Warning that you are over the line. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/34 "2009-09-27T20:33:08Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Better a misogynist than an ignorant fool. You are over the line. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/35 "2009-09-27T21:11:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Direct personal insults are prohibited in Great Debates. > > This is a Warning that you are over the line. > > [/Moderating] Acknowledged, apologies **tomndebb** ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/36 "2009-09-27T21:23:26Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Either you have a lot to learn about sarcasm, or that 26 y/o has a lot to learn about real life. Or perhaps you have a lot to learn about areas outside your personal experience. You really think that you know what’s happening across all of America in this day and age, do you? It doesn’t fit my expectations, so I’ll just reject it out of hand, eh? ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/37 "2009-09-27T21:47:25Z")
The 26 year old is an idiot, and I hope the person was told that their comment was sexist and inappropriate. Sexism is not just male to female, and it is intolerable no matter which direction it flows from. Hopefully someday that sort of automatic response will be extinct. Whether coming from a male or a female, any decision based on gender or orientation should be rejected. This includes the “you’re gay, so what do you think of this shirt” sort of thing, as well as the “you’re a girl, so you can’t open the door” or the “you’re a guy, so lift/move this for me”. Feminism is gradually turning into a bad word because of females that want it both ways (and males that encourage this in their little girls, too). I’m still a “feminist”, but I like to call myself an “equalist” for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/38 "2009-09-27T22:09:17Z")
Actually she’s not an idiot, she’s a really great nurse. I’m glad to have her on our staff. ---
**Author:** ![StaudtCJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@StaudtCJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StaudtCJ)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/39 "2009-09-27T22:15:41Z")
She just has a sexist outlook, then. I’ll retract the “idiot” comment. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637/40 "2009-09-27T23:32:56Z")
Thanks to Buckler of Swashing, Neverending Elbow, and Frylock for helping me understand the situation. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-feminism/511637.md?page=3)