# Question about Gold Standard and Tariffs **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 15, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270 "2012-07-15T02:20:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/81 "2012-07-30T03:14:29Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > The people for whom I argue aren’t interested … Right. They’re too busy arguing about the gold fringe on courtroom flags. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/82 "2012-07-30T03:46:21Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > I have seen the light and changed sides. The people for whom I argue aren’t interested and the people who just want big government don’t make sense. So, I’m all for helping bring down the current system and start all over. That isn’t gonna happen as long as Joe Six Pack still has a cold beer, remote control, and a BBQ. So, we need to help this whole mess just disintegrate. Nothing is going to change till there are people starving, mass hysteria, and blood in the street…picture downtown L.A. riots but on a national scale. So, I’m with you guys. Out with people who read the constitution…hell, out with people who read…like McDonalds with the picture menus, and let’s go with majority rule…Democracy may be the fastest way to bring it down. So, am I enlightened yet? I probably shouldn’t have said that out loud huh? And this is you trying to convince us you’re more clear sighted than everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/83 "2012-07-30T04:31:49Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > I have seen the light and changed sides. The people for whom I argue aren’t interested and the people who just want big government don’t make sense. So, I’m all for helping bring down the current system and start all over. That isn’t gonna happen as long as Joe Six Pack still has a cold beer, remote control, and a BBQ. So, we need to help this whole mess just disintegrate. Nothing is going to change till there are people starving, mass hysteria, and blood in the street…picture downtown L.A. riots but on a national scale. So, I’m with you guys. Out with people who read the constitution…hell, out with people who read…like McDonalds with the picture menus, and let’s go with majority rule…Democracy may be the fastest way to bring it down. So, am I enlightened yet? I probably shouldn’t have said that out loud huh? Just as an intellectual exercise, I want to see if I can decipher this. You claim to argue for common man (?) against special interests, bankers and whiny libtards (my new favorite perjorative) who want to wipe their ass on the constitution by taking us off the gold standard. But, you note that the Constitution grants Congress the power to regulate the value of money. You also note that the aforementioned common man is too dumb, fat and happy to care that he is being taken for a ride by a bunch of ninnies is black dresses. I am pretty sure of that part. Now, are you advocating some kind of total Mad Max world so that you and other right-thinking people can rewrite the Constitution to make things nice and sparkling clear, or are you claiming that the rest of us who aren’t persuaded by your arguments are going to cause the total collapse of the system via Zimbabwean hyperinflation caused by us morons and our stupid fiat money? I think it’s the latter based on your Mencken quote, but I am not completely sure because you are worried that you are going to bring the heat down for advocating the violent overthrow of the government. How many did I get right? Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/84 "2012-07-30T04:52:47Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > How many did I get right? You forgot the part about how going off the gold standard will cause “people starving, mass hysteria, and blood in the street”. Fortunately, it’s apparently a slow process. But he knows what he’s talking about. He once read a book. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/85 "2012-07-30T05:15:20Z")
[QUOTE=William Jennings Bryan] If they dare to come out in the open field and defend the gold standard as a good thing, we will fight them to the uttermost. Having behind us the producing masses of this nation and the world, supported by the commercial interests, the laboring interests and the toilers everywhere, we will answer their demand for a gold standard by saying to them: You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold. [/QUOTE] > [@mmmbeer](#): > > It wasn’t a theory. I didn’t say that because I disagree it is inoperative. I merely posted the constitution, and said I didn’t need anyone to tell me that what is says isn’t what it says. > But happy days are here. I found the part that says the government can use whatever they want to as money and may print up as much as they need. No, sorry, they amended that. The new part reads as much as they want to…and the people deserve to get it put to them good and hard. > [@mmmbeer](#): > > I have seen the light and changed sides. The people for whom I argue aren’t interested and the people who just want big government don’t make sense. So, I’m all for helping bring down the current system and start all over. That isn’t gonna happen as long as Joe Six Pack still has a cold beer, remote control, and a BBQ. So, we need to help this whole mess just disintegrate. Nothing is going to change till there are people starving, mass hysteria, and blood in the street…picture downtown L.A. riots but on a national scale. So, I’m with you guys. Out with people who read the constitution…hell, out with people who read…like McDonalds with the picture menus, and let’s go with majority rule…Democracy may be the fastest way to bring it down. So, am I enlightened yet? I probably shouldn’t have said that out loud huh? Are you writing a book, **mmmbeer**? I think it’ll be really something. I do have one question while you’re here. You write “the government can use whatever they want to as money and may print up as much as they … want to…and the people deserve to get it put to them good and hard.” I see you’re following in the great tradition of W.J. Bryan, but we don’t even get to be crucified on a Cross of Gold these days: all we get is a _Cross of Paper_. Someone will ask the inevitable question: What does this have to do with the price of eggs? Let me be that person. I see that [US Egg Farm Price Received](http://ycharts.com/indicators/us_egg_price) was 0.863 this April, but only 0.770 as recently as April 2010. Is this the hyperinflation danger you’re alerting us to, or is there more? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/86 "2012-07-30T14:17:31Z")
Little-known fact: Bryan’s Cross of Gold speech also introduced the trickle-down theory: > [@](#): > > There are two ideas of government. There are those who believe that if you just legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous, that their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up and through every class that rests upon it. You can make the argument that this speech marks the start of the modern era of liberal versus conservative ideologies. (The parties don’t align well until much later, since many Republicans were Progressives and many Southern Democrats were Troglodytes, but we can talk about the two sides coherently in ways you can’t for earlier politics.) The problem with Bryan’s opposition to gold was that he was for a bimetallic standard to benefit the silver miners. Still hard money. And bimetallic standards are deadly: the two metals will get out of sync instantly and Gresham’s Law is a higher authority than the Supreme Court. You really shouldn’t use him as a shining example in that way. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/87 "2012-07-30T16:14:26Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > That isn’t gonna happen as long as Joe Six Pack still has a cold beer, remote control, and a BBQ. So, we need to help this whole mess just disintegrate. Nothing is going to change till there are people starving, mass hysteria, and blood in the street I love this rationale. People have it too good to want a change so we need to make them suffer. We need to do this so they’ll have a good life. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/88 "2012-07-30T17:05:47Z")
Do you know who else told people that suffering would make them free? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/89 "2012-07-30T17:14:54Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I love this rationale. People have it too good to want a change so we need to make them suffer. We need to do this so they’ll have a good life. It pretty much sucks as a rationale because it ignores the reality that going off the gold standard has worked. Here’s an economic history of the United States on the gold standard: the Panic of 1796-1799, the Recession of 1802-1804, the Depression of 1807-1810, the Recession of 1812, the Depression of 1815-1821, the Recession of 1822-1823, the Recession of 1825-1826, the Recession of 1828-1829, the Recession of 1833-1834, the Recession of 1836-1838, the Recession of 1839-1843, the Recession of 1845-1846, the Recession of 1847-1848, the Recession of 1853-1854, the Panic of 1857-1858, the Recession of 1860-1861, the Recession of 1865-1867, the Recession of 1869-1870, the Panic of 1873, the Depression of 1873-1879, the Recession of 1882-1885, the Recession of 1887-1888, the Recession of 1890-1891, the Panic of 1893-1894, the Panic of 1896-1897, the Recession of 1899-1900, the Recession of 1902-1904, the Panic of 1907-1908, the Panic of 1910-1911, the Recession of 1913-1914, the Recession of 1918-1919, the Depression of 1920-1921, the Recession of 1923-1924, the Recession of 1925-1927, and the Great Depression. This is the prosperity and economic stability we should go back to? ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/90 "2012-07-31T15:53:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And this is you trying to convince us you’re more clear sighted than everyone else? This is me convincing you that I’m done talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/91 "2012-07-31T16:18:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You forgot the part about how going off the gold standard will cause “people starving, mass hysteria, and blood in the street”. Fortunately, it’s apparently a slow process. > > But he knows what he’s talking about. He once read a book. I didn’t say going off the gold standard would cause those things. The system collapsing will cause those. Completely different subject. I ONCE read A book. Nice. And relevant. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/92 "2012-07-31T16:27:13Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I love this rationale. People have it too good to want a change so we need to make them suffer. We need to do this so they’ll have a good life. By your comment, everyone can see that you don’t understand the rationale. Stepping you through it one step at a time, the government expands the money supply and keeps it inflated. It is easy money times. The government and the people spend all they have, then they spend some more. And some more. And more, until they are up to their eyeballs in debt. They are buying $40,000 cars and $300,000 houses on a $30,000 income. If you think this is people having it too good to want a change, uhhh, I don’t really know what to say to that. You have no clue as to what good means? I don’t know. “We need to make them suffer”? I didn’t say that. That I see that it is coming is not me making it happen. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/93 "2012-07-31T16:35:26Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > I have read that as a measure of inflation, during the time we were on the gold standard, from colonial times an ounce of gold would buy a decent man’s suit. It still will. As a comparison, on the federal reserve note, 1 dollar in 1930 is roughly 13 today. This means the government has stolen 12/13ths of the purchasing power of the people’s wealth through inflation. How many ounces of gold did it take to buy an iPhone in 1930? You can’t have a meaningful conversation about inflation or monetary standards by comparing to a single good, and ignoring technological change. At least some inflation isn’t due to “government theft”, it’s due to the fact that we’re actually richer than we used to be, so goods and services (like tailoring) that require more labor input are comparatively more expensive than those that don’t. You also can’t have a very meaningful discussion when you use hard-to-pin-down terms like “decent man’s suit”. What qualifies “decent”? Men’s Wearhouse on sale? Savile Row bespoke? Men’s suits range in price by a factor of 100. The fact that the value of an ounce of gold has stayed in that range isn’t particularly impressive. The price of gold fluctuates quite a lot. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/94 "2012-07-31T16:46:51Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > How many ounces of gold did it take to buy an iPhone in 1930? > > You can’t have a meaningful conversation about inflation or monetary standards by comparing to a single good, and ignoring technological change. At least some inflation isn’t due to “government theft”, it’s due to the fact that we’re actually richer than we used to be, so goods and services (like tailoring) that require more labor input are comparatively more expensive than those that don’t. > You also can’t have a very meaningful discussion when you use hard-to-pin-down terms like “decent man’s suit”. What qualifies “decent”? Men’s Wearhouse on sale? Savile Row bespoke? Men’s suits range in price by a factor of 100. The fact that the value of an ounce of gold has stayed in that range isn’t particularly impressive. The price of gold fluctuates quite a lot. What is required in a debate about whether gold is a better money than paper is to show how paper has retained it’s buying power better than gold has. Actually, as technology advances and capital investments produce more goods, the price of things comes down. Not up. It is inflation that makes things more expensive, not increasing the output of goods with the same input. ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/95 "2012-07-31T16:49:37Z")
If anyone wants to show how paper has outperformed gold in maintaining purchasing power or limiting the governments ability to manipulate the money supply, I will continue, otherwise have a great day. Been fun, well interesting anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/96 "2012-07-31T17:03:31Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > “We need to make them suffer”? I didn’t say that. You said: > [@mmmbeer](#): > > So, we need to help this whole mess just disintegrate. Sounds like you want suffering to me. What else could you mean by “disintegrate”? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/97 "2012-07-31T17:19:16Z")
Look, the fact is that we don’t have high inflation right now, let alone hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is bad. Everyone agrees. OK. And you can’t have hyperinflation with commodity money, because while you can increase the money supply by creating/extracting more of the commodity, you’re limited by real world increases in the commodity. So yes, you can add more cacao beans, buy you have to actually grow the cacao beans. Or you can dig up more gold, but you have to actually mine the gold. But I’m still vague on what problem you’re attempting to solve. You aren’t advocating paper money convertable to gold at a fixed rate are you? Paper money is paper money, it isn’t gold, it is a promise to pay gold that is only worth anything if you believe the promises of the issuer. So what you want is not “the gold standard” but actual gold commodity money, yes? But thing is, how do you mandate the use of gold coins in today’s financial market? Are you advocating banning credit cards? Checks? Buying things on credit? All these things create a form of paper/electronic money. Or do you actually just want to go back on “the gold standard”? But can’t you see that today’s Federal Reserve Notes are already freely convertable to gold? They just aren’t convertable at a fixed rate. In other words, people will trade you gold bars and coins for US dollars. In other words, you can use dollars, or Euros, or Pesos, or Yen, to buy gold and other precious metals. And this was not the case back in the days when the dollar was on the gold standard and it was illegal to own gold. You can sidestep all the supposed dangers of fiat money simply buy immediately trading any fiat money paid to you into real commodities like gold. Gold is not money. Gold is a shiny metal that you can dig out of the ground that can be used as money. But so can a lot of things. The notion that gold is money and money is gold is simply a delusion. So while gold can be used as money, it has a lot of disadvantages. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/98 "2012-07-31T17:33:44Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > I didn’t say going off the gold standard would cause those things. The system collapsing will cause those. Completely different subject. What system collapsing? Countries began going off the gold standard eighty years ago. If blood in the streets was the inevitable result, wouldn’t we have noticed by now? What’s actually happened is most countries have experience economic growth since going off the gold standard. This makes claims of certain doom seem a little unbelievable. > [@mmmbeer](#): > > I ONCE read A book. Nice. And relevant. Well done. It’s pretty apt. Most people who argue for a gold standard are people who don’t have a broad enough knowledge of economics and history. Like a lot of fringe theories, a gold standard sounds plausible when it’s presented in isolation. But a wider awareness will start introducing the inconsistencies. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/99 "2012-07-31T17:53:05Z")
> [@mmmbeer](#): > > Just because the government can get 5 men to put on little black dresses and proclaim that: > “No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt.” > actually means: > No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin, or anything else the government says, a Tender in Payment of Debt. > Doesn’t make it true. > It isn’t my opinion that the Constitution says that, it is a fact. You could read it for yourself, so as to be sure I’m not manipulating the Constitution. > It IS an opinion that it means “or anything else the government wants to use”…That’s what they call it…The majority opinion. Given that the people who wrote the US Constitution had ample experience with paper money, seeing as that is essentially how the Continental Congress had just finished financing the Revolution, don’t you think that if they had thought it was a bad idea for the government to issue it they would have put something \*specific \*in the Constitution to prohibit it? ---
**Author:** ![mmmbeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mmmbeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmbeer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270/100 "2012-07-31T18:23:23Z")
My argument is that gold is a better money than paper. So, once again: If anyone wants to show how paper has outperformed gold in maintaining purchasing power or limiting the governments ability to manipulate the money supply, I will continue, otherwise have a great day. Been fun, well interesting anyway. I understand your avoidance of trying to defend paper money, but I am limiting myself to this discussion. I have let you guys drag me off into multiple sideways conversations and there are just too many of you to continue. So, if we could stick to the meat and potatoes… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-gold-standard-and-tariffs/628270.md?page=6)