Question about Gold Standard and Tariffs

I just recommended this book in another thread, so I might as well repeat it here. Empire of Wealth: The Epic History of American Economic Power by John Steele Gordon. I would describe it as a mainstream conservative business-oriented view of economic history, so it receives some one-star reviews on Amazon from those with similarly, um, idiosyncratic views of economics to mmmbeer, mostly because it makes the case for the necessity of a central bank and the advisability of going off the gold standard. (I have problems with parts of the book myself, but not those.)

You can summarize modern views of the gold standard by the simple statement that in the 80 or so years since every modern economy went off the gold standard no state has ever re-instituted it. None. Not any school of economic thinking, not left, right, or middle political structures, not nations that were in hyperinflation, not a dictator who had absolute power, not a rogue state. How bad must an idea be before crazed autocrats will refuse to touch it?

Tariffs are much more interesting historically. Tariffs are central to U.S. history. They work to protect the goods or industries they are imposed on, so what you choose changes everything. Do you put a high tariff on finished goods to encourage consumers to support local industry or put the tariffs on raw materials to support local suppliers? More specifically, the North always wanted protection to grow its industries, while the South wanted low tariffs because foreign manufacturers could make goods cheaper. Since tariffs were the chief source of revenue for the U.S. pre-Civil War, high tariffs almost always won. Along as tariffs apply to an entire country, some areas and industries and peoples will benefit at the sake of others. Even after the war Great Britain and the other European powers complained bitterly against the tariffs the U.S. placed on good to shut out foreign competition. We became the world’s foremost industrial power on the back of tariffs.

Which we now bitterly complain about when other developing countries protect their growing industries by tariffs while we shout about the wonders of and need for free trade. Tariffs are a useful tool but something of a blunt instrument. They can easily be set too high or too low to properly raise revenue, and they will almost certainly set off retaliatory tariffs or other trading barriers and cause pain. They are a prime example of government control of economy in ways that free marketers hate yet they had indisputable success in making the country great. Yet almost everybody agrees that the Smoot-Hawley tariff turned the Crash of 1929 into a world depression as world trade collapsed. Free markets have never existed at any time in history and never will. The Constitution somehow fails to mention them entirely.

A dollar is still worth today what it was worth in 1930: one dollar. If you’re looking for somebody to get mad at, blame the people who sell suits who now want thirteen times as many dollars for a suit as they did eighty years ago.

You mean like the power “to coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures”?

By that logic, a suit is still worth what is was back when, one suit. It is only by comparing what a money will buy, i.e. it’s purchasing power, that determines it’s value.
I’m not mad, I’m just stating facts, which I see no one is disputing.

That is correct. But, to coin money, only means to mint it into a standard coin, not to print up as much as you would like. Regulate the value is to determine that so much of one coin is worth so much of another. As more of one metal is mined and minted, they may get out of balance and have different values one against the other

In two clauses that we will later examine in detail, it is clearly stated what constitutes money. In Article I, Section 8, Clause 5, and again in Article I, Section 10, Clause 1.

· Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.

· Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt. [4]

In the above two articles it is clearly stated that Congress has the power to coin money, while no state shall coin money; nor make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debt. Thus the Constitution states that money is gold and silver coin.

It follows that if gold and silver coin are the only forms of money the Constitution grants recognition of, then Congress’s power to borrow money means gold and silver coin. Likewise the form of money to be repaid is gold and silver coin.
I hope this clears up any confusion about what is authorized by the constitution…it isn’t built on faith or trust in the government.

And still no one disputes the facts. They are aggravating like that aren’t they? If you guys want me to keep playing with you, tell me where I’m wrong…

Unless you happen to be five Supreme Court Justices, your opinion on this subject is just an opinion. Actual Supreme Court Justices have ruled otherwise on this issue.

Again, you say that all that you have said is also just an opinion, so the wheel goes round and round.

They also ruled that eminent domain means if the city’s new buddies can increase the tax base, then the city can seize people’s property. Doesn’t mean it follows the Constitution.

Is there something confusing about:
Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt.
that would require interpretation?
I agree I could get my 5 poker friends to say it means I can make chicken eggs payment for my debt. But that ain’t what the Constitution says.

Why do you think the government stole the money? If any one stole anything, it was debtors, who repaid loans with devalued dollars.

Well, the actual Founding Fathers, the ones who were around at the time and wrote the actual Constitution, were the same ones who implemented the government’s banking powers. If George Washington and Alexander Hamilton saw no reason to think the Constitution forbade this then you’re going to have to come up with some pretty darn amazing arguments for why we should listen to you over them.

Right, it was the poor people who took loans, manipulated the money supply, and repaid their debts, who stole it.

Isn’t it enough of an argument against fiat money, that they stole it?
But I should also have to come up with why? You overreach yourself sir.

Reference these banking powers at the time of the drafting of the Constitution and we can discuss them.

You want the government out of the money business? Well, you certainly don’t have to use the fraudulent fiat "dollars’ that the fascists back in Washington issue. You can use non-government money. You can pay your employees in gold coins, buy your goods and services with gold coins, only accept gold coins in payment for the goods and services you provide, use gold coins as a unit of account when you keep your books, and keep gold coins in a safe in your basement instead of using a bank.

The only time you absolutely have to use fiat dollars are when you pay your taxes, and so when you do that you just take your gold coins to the local coin dealer, buy as many worthless paper coupons as you need, and mail those off to the IRS.

The only problem is getting people to accept gold coins as payment for goods and services, and getting people to pay you with gold coins when you provide goods and services to them. And it turns out that there are very few people who will trade with you if you refuse to trade using the medium of US dollars. So it’s just like dealing with Ooompa-Loompas, who only accept payment in cacao beans. If you want to trade with Ooompa-Loompas, you better get used to the idea of using cacao beans as a medium of exchange, and if the thought of cacao beans makes you sick then you better get used to the idea of never trading with Ooompa-Loompas.

The fact is, “Gold Standard” currency is a fraud. There’s no such thing as paper money on a gold standard, because the first thing a goverment does when it becomes inconvenient is to suspend payment of gold for paper. Then what? Your scrap of paper that says the goverment owes you X weight of .999 gold is just a scrap of paper, just as much as the scrap of fiat paper.

If you really want gold currency, you need to use actual gold. And the trouble is that dealing with gold coins instead of electronic bookkeeping ledgers is tremendously incovenient. Any time you put your gold coins in a vault in a bank, and the bank hands you a reciept that says they owe you such-and-such weight of gold, you’ve stopped dealing with hard money and you’re in the land of winds and ghosts. Any time you buy on credit, or sell on credit, any time you deliver goods and services and then send a bill for payment due, you’re back in the wilderness of funny money based on trust.

Fiat money based on nothing is honest, because it is based on nothing more than a government’s word. It doesn’t promise to be worth a certain amount of a particular good. It’s a simple coupon, based on nothing. You can create the exact same thing if you print up coupons and promise to redeem them for whatever you like. Private currency, man. Or, you know, barter. Which is all gold coins really are, a method of bartering that uses tiny ingots of certain metals as a key good to facilitate barter, you don’t need to trade chickens for baskets, you trade chickens for gold, and trade gold for baskets. Just like cigarettes in prison, or buckskins, or beads, or cacao beans, or all the other key goods used as money since the dawn of history.

Except you don’t need that. If a government can’t be trusted to keep honest books with fiat money, how would requiring them to keep their books in gold help? Yes, governments lie and cheat and manipulate currencies. They sure do. And back when we were on the gold standard, they lied and cheated and manipulated gold.

At least with today’s fiat dolllar, we have a free market in gold and silver. Remember how when we were on the gold standard it was illegal to own gold except for jewelery? Which is better, a notional gold standard with massive manipulation and regulation of the gold market, or a fiat standard with a free market for gold? Under our current system you can buy and sell gold however you like and the fascists at the Federal Reserve won’t even blink. Freedom, baby. If you don’t like fiat money, you for sure won’t like how the gold standard used to work, and how it would be implemented if we ever returned to the gold standard, which we won’t, even if the dollar becomes worthless tomorrow due to hyperinflation.

Ah, of course. George Washington didn’t know The Truth. Hamilton didn’t know The Truth. The entire U.S. government, including the Supreme Court, doesn’t know The Truth. But mmmbeer knows The Truth.

The Truth is not a trump card to be played when the rest of us reference actual history, law, economics, and politics. It is invisible and imaginary. You can wave it around as much as you want and then can put it in your pocket when you walk away smugly believing that you have showed us all your superiority. But it remains invisible and imaginary and nobody has ever been convinced by it.

If you have other cards to play, please play them.

Yeah, a dollar of gold is not going stay at x mg of gold just because there’s a “gold standard.” There was inflation even when people used silver coins for money.

Now, if you want to barter in bullion, you can try that. If you want to use AgScrip or one of the other silver-backed privately issued notes, you can try that.

But money is a technology. The gold standard is a form of that. Central bank debt-money another form. There are forms of scrip that rely on demurrage, or are redeemable for hours of labor. All these are variations on the technology. It’s just a matter of finding the right technology that works. The present banking system is a hot mess, yes. The gold standard is not going to fix it, and is a distraction from a real solution.

Also, inflation of the money supply is not some horrible modernist plot to undermine everything sacred, it’s deliberately undertaken to keep the economy from grinding to a halt when people save money. And there are times when deflation is the greater danger.

I never finished this book. I had an audio-copy from the library, and having a book on CD seems like a good idea while doing something else, but I didn’t finish it.

So, based on the first chapter, yeah, there appears to be a credible claim there. Protectionism can sometimes help a struggling country get out from under other countries’ economic imperialism. Even the Marxist-Leninists, who in theory are supposed to be about the international brotherhood of man, embrace protectionism (at least from capitalist class enemies) as a way to keep out foreign economic imperialists. It sure looks like it makes sense.

Allow me to explain.

You have opinions about what’s constitutional. I have opinions about what’s constitutional.

Supreme Court Justices decide what’s constitutional.

So when I post that the Supreme Court decided fiat currency is constitutional, I’m not stating an opinion - I’m telling you that fact that ends the argument.

IIRC when we were on the gold standard the Fed. govt. promised to buy or sell anyone an ounce of gold for $35. Since gold is about $2000 an ounce now, how many seconds would it take for the govt. to fail, buying gold for $2 thou and selling it for $35? Another reason against high tariffs is that we have them, then the rest of the world will raise tariffs against us.

There is severe misconception here. Others have tried to point that out, in different ways. I will try too. I hope that you, mmmbeer, report back and tell us if you’ve been enlightened ! :cool:

“Get the government’s hand out of the money business” seems to be popular with supporters of Paul Rand, but I’d ask you what problem you’re trying to solve. Do you think the present financial crisis was caused by inflation?

During the 70 years from 1930 to 2000, the price of gold per ounce went from $21 to $280. Minimum hourly wage went from 25 cents to $5.15. Thus the minimum earner had almost twice the gold-buying power in 2000 as in 1930, if that statistic is meaningful.

As for “losing 12/13” of its value, should we compare a saver who places gold in his vault with one who places banknotes in his vault? Such a long-term saver is as likely to place, say, Philip Morris stock instead – that guy will leave the gold investor way behind in the dust!

Know that economists think a modest inflation rate, say 2%, may be preferable to no inflation at all. Your figure of 13x loss works out to an average of 3.2% inflation over the 82-year period. Yes, that’s higher than 2%, but reflects a few severe bouts of inflation, e.g. the 1970’s.

People are not in general victimized by inflation. Wage-earners see their wages rise; these days pensions may have automatic COL increases; savers see interest rates go up; and so on. There are exceptions. Debtors may benefit at the expense of banks, but your implication that government benefits at the expense of ordinary people seems … odd.

Does any of this help? I’m afraid it may not; you may think I’m evading the real issue, which involves some Abstract Dollar which has somehow been desecrated. But that abstraction is just inside your head.