# Question about Jazz Improvising **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [September 24, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367 "2020-09-24T00:38:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/1 "2020-09-24T00:38:21Z")
So I’m trying to learn to improvise on the piano and have some questions that are maybe more theory than anything, but I’m not sure. I have basically no “formal” musical training, so I might use the wrong terms here and there. Anyway, so if I’m playing in C and playing a I-IV-V, so I’m playing a C-F-G chord progression. Now, if I’m improvising over the top of that, I can basically play any notes in the key of C (so no sharps, no flats) and they’ll all sound… reasonably good. I know there are some that sound better, etc. But they’ll all “fit” with the chords. So I think I’m good with that. But if I’m improvising and instead of using the major scale as the “source” for my improvisation, I’m using the blues scale, say, with the same chord progression. So the C blues scale is C-Eb-F-Gb-G-Bb and the F blues scale is F-Ab-Bb-B-C-Eb so now when I’m improvising over a C chord, I can “choose” from the notes in the C blues scale, but once my chord progression moves to the IV, then I should shift to picking notes from the F blues scale. I can no longer just consider ONE scale (like I can with the major scale) but now have to consider multiple scales because the notes in the F blues scale are not the same notes as in the C blues scale. Is that all correct? I know this idea of “choosing” notes and restricting myself to a scale (or multiple scales) is kind of bare-bones, but a decent place to start, I think, but I want to make sure I’m understanding it before I commit too much brainpower to it. Oh, and since the F, Bb, and C are the three notes “common” to both the C and F blues scales, is it “useful” to use those notes when transitioning between chords - like, on the 4-beat of the C chord, preparing to shift to an F chord, should I “aim” for one of those three so I can move easily into the F blues scale? Sorry this is long! ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/2 "2020-09-24T01:55:31Z")
You can play the C blues scale over the entire blues progression. Like everything else, some notes are better than others, but the clash of the “blue” notes is what gives the music its spice. ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/3 "2020-09-24T02:14:57Z")
Hm. It doesn’t sound good when I play it. (But that’s probably more a function of my playing than anything!) So if I WERE to “change” blues scales along with the changing chords, would it sound bad? I guess I could just try it, but … I assume it would sound good but is maybe more trouble than it’s worth? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/4 "2020-09-24T02:30:26Z")
Well, there are some notes that clash. But most of the time you can just use the one blues scale and play it over the chords of the progression. You can change the blues scale with the chords, sure. Try it. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/5 "2020-09-24T05:39:09Z")
[Here](https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/jazz-scales/selecting-scales/) is a simple guide explaining how, to get started, you should be aware of [“avoid notes”](https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/jazz-improvisation/avoid-notes/) that clash with a chord tone. Of course, you can and should use them musically, but you should make sure they resolve correctly or whatever you have in mind. ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/6 "2020-09-24T15:43:20Z")
Thanks for the link, but as someone with no formal training, it’s not a “simple” guide for me after the first couple paragraphs. (This isn’t a critique of your post - definitely thanks for recommending it, and “simple” is in the eye of the beholder.) The table makes little sense to me - start talking about “modes” and I’m out. So if I’m playing in the key of C, I should avoid playing an F. (Again, I CAN include it as a passing note, etc.) Or is that just if I’m playing over a C chord, and once I move to the IV or V (an F or G), then my avoid notes change to … well, none over the F and C over the G chord? Is that what the table is trying to tell me? That sounds right to me on my piano - avoiding the F (over a C chord) and the C (over a G chord) while sticking to the C-major scale. (I know, ultimately it’s what sounds right, but I don’t want to reinvent the wheel.) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/7 "2020-09-24T17:59:43Z")
I think the idea behind that table is just that, when playing over a chord, there are certain notes that will harmonically clash dissonantly with the chord tones. According to that rule of thumb, those are notes that are not part of the chord but are a half-step above a chord tone (there is more to it + exceptions, to be sure) So, if your chord is C-E-G-B (or C-E-G-Bb…), the F will be an “avoid note” because it is a semitone above the E. Now if your IV chord is F-A-C-Eb, then F is OK but Bb will be problematic (aka bluesy…) That is simply what that table is trying to tell you. There should be a more penetrating answer that takes into account how particular chords and chord voicings function in a blues context; maybe some of the jazz cats can explain it… ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/8 "2020-09-24T21:44:29Z")
> [@yearofglad](#): > > once I move to the IV or V (an F or G), then my avoid notes change to … well, none over the F Better to clarify: the table that says that over an Fmaj7 chord there are no avoid notes, is only considering notes from the scale F G A B C D E. However, your minor blues scale in C that you specified uses different pitches. If you scroll down to the table with all the colors, the ones in the red boxes are the unavailable ones. This is also charted under [available tensions](https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-piano-lessons/jazz-chords/available-tensions/) ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/9 "2020-09-24T23:20:26Z")
Sure, but the blues scale in C (C-Eb-F-Gb-G-Bb) doesn’t contain any of the notes in red apart from the F, which is the 4th in the major scale which is an “avoid note” anyway, so there really aren’t any additional notes to avoid when using the blues scale except the same note you’d avoid when using the major scale. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/10 "2020-09-24T23:20:33Z")
My original response to the OP was to suggest avoiding the 4th, as that’s usually a clam. So when playing a “C” chord, avoid the F, or just use it as a passing tone. Now when you’re playing an “F” chord, avoid the B-flat. On a G, avoid the “C”. But just because a note is only a semitone away doesn’t mean you have to avoid it–the “blue notes”–the E flat, the G flat, and the B-flat, say, in the blues scale are what give the solos spice–juice notes, some call them. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/11 "2020-09-25T11:13:12Z")
I looked in a certain jazz encyclopedia (_Jazzology_), and it had this to say [[an example of a blues solo is considered](https://books.google.com/books?id=WWhjprIWnwoC&pg=PA166)]: > The freedom of the improvised line to deviate from the chord progression in blues contexts cannot be overstated. To a certain extent, as long as the improviser is playing blues lines in the tonic key, it does not matter what chord is in the harmony. > > Measures 3 and 4 demonstrate this. The melody emphasizes the ♭3, ♭5, and ♭7 at this point. While it would indeed be possible to explain these notes in terms of extensions of the prevailing harmony, that is not what is going here. The notes work because they comprise a typical blues pattern, a familiar-sounding figure sanctioned by a hundred years of blues history. > > This is not to imply that blue notes cannot interact with the harmony to produce colorful effects… Of course, if some cat wants to go ahead and explain each note in terms of the prevailing harmony, that would be interesting :) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/12 "2020-09-25T13:02:34Z")
This is correct. Typically, you stay in the same blues scale over the whole 12-bar progression. You don’t have to, and when I improvise C blues, I fly all over the place and use pretty much all 12 notes at one point or another, but you can just stick to the C blues scale over the C,F,G chords. Your tonal center may change, but you don’t need to move to F blues and G blues. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/13 "2020-09-25T13:06:10Z")
When I have time later, I’ll try to upload an example of a “pure” C blues and how it works over the various chords. ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/14 "2020-09-25T14:36:22Z")
Thanks for your responses - yours and others in this thread. They’ve been super helpful - I asked my question here instead of on a dedicated music thread because sometimes those cats give answers that are just way out of my league. The answers here have been super helpful and straightforward. I’ll continue checking this thread. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/15 "2020-09-25T16:44:08Z")
OP, I’m not sure if you can read music or not. I’ve been trying to find examples, but Google searching brings up a jillion guitar player examples. I did find a simple piano example, though: [Bb Blues Solo - Sheet music for Piano](https://flat.io/score/5898f58e1dcaf4ff6e88ac7c-bb-blues-solo) The Bb blues scale is used throughout. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/16 "2020-09-25T16:53:36Z")
I like that link. I tried to copy the part about transcribing solos to paste in here, but it made me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/17 "2020-09-25T16:55:17Z")
I meant to say, I my original response in this thread _was going to be_ to just avoid the 4th, but I changed it. Wish the edit button was open longer… ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/18 "2020-09-25T17:38:41Z")
I can read music, although not bass clef (I don’t see what the point of having a separate clef is, but that’s a topic for another life). But in the example you linked to, the bass notes are just the chords, which are no problem. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/19 "2020-09-25T18:06:52Z")
They do say that you can make a wrong note right by what comes after. ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367/20 "2020-09-25T20:37:25Z")
That’s ok, no one can hear you read anyway. The separate clef is to keep you from having so many lines over or under the staff. My daughter is taking a music theory class right now, and she is _not happy_ about alto and tenor clefs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-jazz-improvising/921367.md?page=2)