That is because this is not a thread about Chistianity, which is an entirely different religion that Judaism. And while Christianity may have developed for a cult of Judaism after the the time of Jesus, the differences far out weight the similarities today. For example, the nature of God, the atonement for sin, the purpose of life, the afterlife and a variety of other things (as if those aren’t enough) are different in Christianity and Judaism.
So why WOULD anyone address the tenets of Christianity in a thread about Judasim other than to witness (which is exactly what you did)? Forgive me if I doubt your intentions dispite your disclaimer. I don’t know how else to put that, and I tried to as politely as possible.
I understand how you could see my post that way, and it did occur to me that this was a thread addressing the Jewish perspective of the law as it related to gentiles.
Still, I felt that a clarification was needed regarding the Christian perspective, since it seemed to have been addressed also.
As far as any religious question appearing in this forum, I think that the tenets of a religion may be mentioned, even explained, without it being considered proselytizing or witnessing. Facts are facts, and they must be presented in a debate. Outlining the facts concerning the beliefs of any religion need not overstep the bounds of clinical explanation. To this end, in my post, I intended to present only the facts and leave it to the reader to interpret them as they see fit.
I am confident that most, if not all of my posts regarding my faith, in whatever forum, have been circumspect and can be read as detached from what most people would consider “witnessing.” YMMV, of course, but I stand by my original assertion in my earlier post.
It is not my intent to use this Board for the coercion of others to my religious beliefs.
An inheritance tax is necessary when dealing in material goods because there are limited resources - you don’t want one family hoarding it all. Knowledge is a commodity that can be expanded without decreasing or diluting the amount belonging to the original “owner.”
Well, Jews consider Mohammed to have been a false prophet…we don’t think he “received” a revealation at all. You are correct that he discovered and disseminated monotheism, and in fact, Islam is not considered by Judaism to be a form of idolatry. But portions of his messages clearly contradicted portions of the Torah, which is not something a Jew can consider valid.
AbbySthrnAccent:
The process of repentance is the same for a Jew and a gentile. At its simplest, it’s a three-step process, although there is often a fourth and/or fifth component.
Step 1: Feel regret over having sinned.
Step 2: Confess one’s sin to G-d.
Step 3: Resolve to not repeat the sin in question.
If the sin was against another person (say, assault, as opposed to Sabbath desecration, which does not hurt other people), one must also ask that person for forgiveness and have the request granted before G-d will forgive.
If the sin netted the sinner some material gain, he must divest himself of it.
Murder and the sexual sins (adultery, incest, male homosexuality, bestiality).
I’ll knitpick a little here. A distinction can be made between homosexuality, which is a desire/belief and sodomy which is an action. Sodomy is one of the sexual sins that one must die rather than commit.
Also, the “three big ones” that one must martyr oneself for are for Jews. For non-Jews, it is actually a more strict superset. They should choose to die rather than break any of the 7 Noachide laws.
“Knowledge is a commodity that can be expanded without
decreasing or diluting the amount belonging to the original “owner.””
True but even here while there is no need to take away from the advanataged you do often make a special effort to help the disadvantaged ie educate those whose background doesn’t automatically provide them with education. Anyway like I said , MHand has at least partly provided an answer about this.
Anyway this is probably my last post here. Thanks, Zev,Chaim and MHand for a good discussion.
I don’t think you can draw a comparison between the spiritual and the secular here. I don’t think you can inherit spiritual knowledge or enlightenment, any more than you can buy it. Everyone must work for it, regardless of the “spiritual status” of your parents!
Knowledge of the Torah or any religious system does not a religious person make, nor a spiritual one. It is the discipline that makes the difference.
And I will echo previous posts in saying that this has been an excellent thread.
Repentance has a lot to do with DAV’s compare and contrast with Christianity.
Repentance is called “Teshuva” in Judaism. The High Holy Days are focused around this concept. Chiam summarizes well. After making right by the people we may have harmed, and recieving forgiveness from them, we can resolve to not repeat the sin, and ask forgiveness from God. This is not out of fear, but out of real desire to do right. BTW we are responsible for sins that we did not intend to commit or committed by accident and without knowledge.
Paul apparently “forgot” about Teshuva. His take was that God would damn our souls for any sin, and that therefore Christ’s death and faith in his divinity were required to save our souls. The emphasis in Judaism is on following the rules, not faith. The emphasis is on this life, not the world to come.
Recent world events brought up this perspective difference. Some Christian leaders advocated praying for the souls of the terrorists and forgiving them. Jews would never consider it. Only their victims have the power to forgive them. As my Rabbi said to a Minister friend “Okay, pray for them, but do me a favor, and don’t pray too hard for the bastards.”
Hm. I’m not sure this is completely accurate, although I do think it touches on a fundamental difference between Jewish and Christian philosophy.
Certainly, Paul placed his faith in Christ. He makes that clear. But repentance and the desire to obey God still play a part in Paul’s theology. Paul wrote “If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” From the way Teshuva is described, that seems to jibe.
Paul also exhorted the Church in Rome to not “sin, so that grace may abound,” and told them in no uncertain terms that even though they are not bound by the law, they should strive to obey it, because it is still God’s law. But it was Paul’s contention that the law did not save man from sin, but rather it was through the law that man became aware of sin (presumably since, being God’s law, it would take a perfect man to live up to it).
Although Christianity is rooted in faith, repentance and the desire not to repeat our offenses is also part of it. As are good works. But these latter are motivated by the former.
I was just reading the staff report on Samaritans, and I was wondering what modern Jews think of the modern Samaritan population? Do they consider them a subset of the Jewish faith as a whole? Is there still a sort of taboo against associating with them?