# Question about Littlefinger from A Game of Thrones \[major spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 20, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033 "2011-04-20T01:43:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/1 "2011-04-20T01:43:02Z")
Re-reading the books lately has made me wonder . . . (spoiler space - refers to events from all four books currently published) . . . . . . . . . . . So it’s pretty clear that Littlefinger convinced Lysa to help him kill Jon Arryn, right? And then they conspired to tell the Starks that the Lannisters did it. What was he thinking at the time though? He must have known that Robert was going to offer the job to Ned. Why did he want Ned Stark as the King’s Hand? If he had Arryn killed simply in the hopes of taking over the Eyrie one day, it wouldn’t have mattered if Ned had been the Hand or not. Littlefinger’s lie about the daggers seems to support the idea that he wanted the Starks and the Lannisters at each other’s throats. Did he just want the realm to fall into chaos? It’s obvious that he has serious ambitions but I’ve never quite been able to figure out what his original motivations were. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/2 "2011-04-20T01:47:52Z")
Chaos is a major goal of his. If he’s driving chaos that mean’s he’s one step ahead of everybody else. He knows what he’s doing, but nobody else does. He tells Sansa this after Joffrey’s death. Also, maybe he wanted Cat to come down to the capital. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/3 "2011-04-20T02:47:05Z")
I agree with **Snarky\_Kong**. Basically, whereas most other characters rely on the status quo in order to make their manipulations, Littlefinger first tries to mess everything up, both because he has great faith in his ability over everyone else’s to cope with and get the best out of a chaotic situation, and also because it means that his true goals aren’t easily discernable. We generally see reactions to him from Tyrion’s POV (Cersei technically too, except she doesn’t actually connect him at all to what’s going on), and even he, a notable mind himself, really doesn’t understand Littlefinger’s moves until considerably after he makes them. People know he’s a player, but because he does so much seemingly randomly it’s difficult to actually point to him as an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/4 "2011-04-20T03:00:29Z")
But he must have some sort of end goal. I suppose it hasn’t been revealed yet. If he really wanted to create chaos, he could have made sure that the information about Cersei and Jaime became public knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/5 "2011-04-20T03:09:59Z")
> [@HazelNutCoffee](#): > > But he must have some sort of end goal. I suppose it hasn’t been revealed yet. > > If he really wanted to create chaos, he could have made sure that the information about Cersei and Jaime became public knowledge. His end goal? More. He has a huge huge inferiority complex and needs to show the world. He’s lord of Harrenhal, but he wants the Eyrie. Once he gets that he’ll try to get the North through Sansa. Then probably the throne. I’m not sure how he’d have worked bringing Cersei and Jamie into the open, but his slower playing of the game seems to have worked out for him so far. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/6 "2011-04-20T04:12:26Z")
As long as the Starks and Lannisters were at each other’s throats, nobody would notice what he was doing. Plus, look at how he’s benefited from the chaos. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/7 "2011-04-20T04:24:24Z")
I initially thought he was just Machevellain, ie lusting for power etc., until some scenes in the later books re kicking the woman to her death etc. where he really seems quite malevolent. [Here’s a discussion of his motivations](http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/48887-littlefingers-feelings-regarding-catelyn/) > [@](#): > > There are already numerous threads discussing Littlefinger’s character and his motivations. However, I don’t recall ever finding a thread discussing LF’s intentions towards Cat. So, here’s my question: from the time we meet him in AGoT’s onward, what are Littlefinger’s feelings for Cat? And how does she figure (if at all) in his plans? > > The way I see it, it could be any of the following possible scenarios: > > 1. Littlefinger hates and/ or resents Cat. In addition to plotting for power, he desires revenge against her and the rest of the Tully’s for rejecting him. Getting back at her is a crucial part of his plans. > > 2. Littlefinger is indifferent to Cat; his true love and life’s mission now is power. He is mostly over his boyish love for her. Since being rejected by her at age 15, he has moved on. His plans for power and self- advancement are first and foremost; she is not really a consideration. He does not desire revenge, but getting Cat back into his life in a romantic sense is not something he considers in his plots. > > 3. Littlefinger still loves Cat, and wants her back in his life somewhat, but his first priorities are power and self-advancement. If there is a way to get her back that goes along well with his schemes, then he will certainly pursue it. However, his power games come first. > > 4. Littlefinger still loves Cat as much as ever, and getting her back in his life (and in his arms) is a key part of his plans. His plan was to get rid of Ned, and then turn with open arms to “comfort” a lonely, vulnerable Catelyn. He wanted land, position, and power, but with her at his side. Getting Catelyn was every bit as important to him as his plans for power; however, obviously things didn’t work out the way he planned in regards to the former. > > So… what do you all think? Is it one of these options? A combination of several of them? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/8 "2011-04-20T04:35:45Z")
He loves the idea of Cat. Littlefinger was always inferior socially to the Tullies. They were great lords, and he’s a minor baron. So I think he likes the idea that he’s important and can get a woman now as powerful as one of the Tully sisters. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/9 "2011-04-20T05:30:35Z")
According to the conversation Arya overheard , even Varys and Iliriyo didn’t know what Littlefinger’s game is; three books later, it isn’t any clearer. Personally, I think it has something to do with Braavos. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/10 "2011-04-20T06:07:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He loves the idea of Cat. Littlefinger was always inferior socially to the Tullies. They were great lords, and he’s a minor baron. So I think he likes the idea that he’s important and can get a woman now as powerful as one of the Tully sisters. Yes, it’s clear he’s put Cat on a pedestal. His perving on Sansa seriously creeps me out though. He is one of the most interesting characters in the series, but it would be intensively satisfying to see him fail spectacularly. (Or it would be for me, anyway.) I don’t think Cat ever figured into his plans. He implied in the first book that he expected Cat to stay in Winterfell and support Robb while Ned was away. (“Family. Duty. Honor.”) Although maybe he did expect Ned to die in the end. I suppose he had a hand in making sure Joff didn’t pardon Ned (were the Slynts in his pocket?). Sort of a tangent, but upon re-reading the series this time around (for the umpteenth time) it occurred to me that Ser Mandon Moore might have been working for Littlefinger rather than Cersei. :smack: I don’t know why the thought never came to me before. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/11 "2011-04-20T15:22:47Z")
The question in the OP is technically from _A Feast for Crows_, since that is where we learn that it was Littlefinger and Lysa who plotted John Arryn’s death. As for his motives, could be he knew Ned would investigate Arryn’s death and wind up discovering the secret affair between Cersei and Jamie. Maybe he thought they could have gotten rid of Ned in such a way that could possibly have led to him marrying Cat and taking Winterfell? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/12 "2011-04-20T16:53:12Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > The question in the OP is technically from _A Feast for Crows_, since that is where we learn that it was Littlefinger and Lysa who plotted John Arryn’s death. > > As for his motives, could be he knew Ned would investigate Arryn’s death and wind up discovering the secret affair between Cersei and Jamie. Maybe he thought they could have gotten rid of Ned in such a way that could possibly have led to him marrying Cat and taking Winterfell? Hell, if Cersei had taken Ned’s offer and run for it, the incest secret would have been out. Either way there’s chaos, and there’s chaos he saw coming and could use to come out another step ahead. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/13 "2011-04-20T17:40:59Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > The question in the OP is technically from _A Feast for Crows_, since that is where we learn that it was Littlefinger and Lysa who plotted John Arryn’s death. I’m 99% sure that’s in Storm of Swords, right before Littlefinger pushes her out the moon door. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/14 "2011-04-21T00:53:33Z")
No, he definitely kills her in FfC, not SoS. I’m sure Littlefinger knew Ned would come to King’s Landing to investigate Arryn’s death and that he would eventually discover the incest. I suppose I’m curious as to what he expected would happen from there. Logically one would assume Ned would go straight to Robert, which would have culminated in the fall of House Lannister, although they wouldn’t have gone down without a fight, I suppose. I wonder what Lord Tywin would have done, confronted with hard evidence that his children were guilty of incest and of cuckolding the king. ETA: Sorry, you were right. It’s in SoS that she dies. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![Kylede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kylede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kylede)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/15 "2011-04-21T03:58:15Z")
Has anyone considered that he might be part of the “Martell Conspiracy” If I remember correctly from the last book, Doran Martell, has/was interested in marrying his daughter off to Viserys and helping to put the Targaryens back on the throne. The chaos caused Littlefinger could have been a prelude to destabilze the monarchy before the return of the Targaryens ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/16 "2011-04-21T04:17:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > According to the conversation Arya overheard , even Varys and Iliriyo didn’t know what Littlefinger’s game is; three books later, it isn’t any clearer. … Absolutely. Littlefinger’s plans are unknown and unknowable. I suspect that he is Daernerys’ inside man, though she doesn’t know it, and he may not be rewarded as he expects; time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/17 "2011-04-21T04:32:44Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Absolutely. Littlefinger’s plans are unknown and unknowable. I suspect that he is Daernerys’ inside man, though she doesn’t know it, and he may not be rewarded as he expects; time will tell. Varys is Dany’s inside man and he and Littlefinger work against each other. If Littlefinger is also working for her return, that seems counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/18 "2011-04-21T04:42:49Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Varys is Dany’s inside man and he and Littlefinger work against each other. If Littlefinger is also working for her return, that seems counterproductive. Varys is no longer inside, and could not be trusted by anybody anyway; no way, no how. Littlefinger has no possible hope of gaining the throne for himself, and he is astute enough to know that. He’s either working to put Sansa on the throne with Harry the Heir as consort, or he’s working for Dany, or he’s an anarchist. I’ll readily admit I’m speculating; I’ve got to assume that Martin has not merely been winging it with Littlefinger through four books, and that at some point we’re all going to go :smack: ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/19 "2011-04-21T07:41:26Z")
I think “Littlefinger loves Littlefinger” puts it best. And if Varys is untrustworthy, Littlefinger seems doubly so. I never considered he might be working for someone else. Hm. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033/20 "2011-04-21T07:46:37Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Varys is no longer inside, and could not be trusted by anybody anyway; no way, no how. Littlefinger has no possible hope of gaining the throne for himself, and he is astute enough to know that. He’s either working to put Sansa on the throne with Harry the Heir as consort, or he’s working for Dany, or he’s an anarchist. My speculation - based on absolutely nothing - is that Littlefinger’s game goes deeper than than; namely, that he is an agent of one of the \*true \*powers of the world, either Fire, or Ice. And seeing as Varys and Iliriyo are the ones pulling Dany’s strings, my bet is on the latter. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-littlefinger-from-a-game-of-thrones-major-spoilers/579033.md?page=2)