# Question about Lord of the Rings... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 2, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737 "2004-09-02T08:04:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/21 "2004-09-03T03:07:12Z")
I’m going to have Aveguy take a look on his computer. He can freeze the scene and zoom in with the DVD player. Then we will see what we can see. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/22 "2004-09-03T05:11:47Z")
On the left hand side, covered by his arm and the hand with the missing finger: -this Thursday is—once more in Rivendell—and see- something about -Elanor- -Legolas and—elves that—and chose to—and stay in Middle-earth—friends of Lorien- looks like -Gimli—glittering caves- -honored by the—of the Murk—which- I think the Thursday is Bilbo’s 131 birthday, and Frodo going with him to the Grey Havens. Right hand side, I can’t make out the first sentence, but after skipping a line, there is this: Samwise Gamgee was elected ma—[mayor of?]— Hobbiton, and did though it took— [much?]— courage. He finally asked for the—[hand?]— of fair Rose Cotton. It was t–[the best?]— thing he ever did. Sam wasn’t elected until after Frodo departed, actually. It doesn’t make much sense to mention the birth of Elanor before the marriage of Sam and Rose, but oh well, I guess they were just writing in random bits of the end of the story. I hope that was useful to you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/23 "2004-09-03T12:48:21Z")
_“rosebud…”_ ---
**Author:** ![jfortun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2acd7d/32.png) [@jfortun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jfortun)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/24 "2004-09-03T13:32:19Z")
> [@AveDementia](#): > > He finally asked for the—[hand?]— > of fair Rose Cotton. It was t–[the best?]— > thing he ever did. That would be the “bravest”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/25 "2004-09-03T13:49:57Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > _“rosebud…”_ Ah, the “pet name” for Sam and Rose’s baby! So, **that’s** what Kane was talking about – I never knew he was a Tolkien fan! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/26 "2004-09-04T03:19:59Z")
> [@jfortun](#): > > That would be the “bravest”. Oh, yeah, I think you’re right. I was going by what was said earlier in the thread, and I forgot Frodo says that in the movie. Unless my memory is playing tricks on me again… ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/27 "2004-09-04T04:28:09Z")
“po-tay-toes” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/28 "2004-09-04T04:47:14Z")
> [@willco82](#): > > Near the end of Return of the King, where we see Frodo writing in the book Bilbo started, during the voice over, what is the last line he writes in the book before closing it? Why does this OP make me think of a certain Shatner - SNL skit… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/29 "2004-09-04T04:52:23Z")
**In case anyone is still confused:** In **real life** the last sentence of Lord of the Rings is “Well, I’m back” spoken by Sam. (Actually, this is followed by a lengthy appendix containing timelines, family trees, notes on pronunciation, and most of the details of the Aragorn/Arwen romance that the movies worked into the main story.) Tolkien pretends he is transcribing _The Red Book of Westmarch_, a **fictional book.** Supposedly Bilbo started it, writing “There and Back Again – a Hobbit’s Tale” and Frodo continued it, writing “The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King.” Sam finished this latter story, which is how Tolkien explains the fact that it includes things like Frodo’s departure from Middle Earth, which Frodo obviously couldn’t have written himself. Bilbo’s part of the Red Book is what Tolkien claims he’s reprinting in _The Hobbit_, whereas Frodo/Sam’s part is what he claims he’s reprinting in _The Lord of the Rings_. Supposedly a great deal more was added to _The Red Book_ sometime later (by some historian from Gondor, if I remember correctly), and some of this is reprinted in the Appendix. This is how Tolkien explains the fact that some of the timelines extend beyond Sam’s death, meaning he couldn’t have written them. Again, this is **fiction** – obviously neither Gondor nor the Shire ever existed, and Tolkien wrote the whole thing himself. It’s interesting to note that Tolkien viewed _The Lord of the Rings_ (as well as _The Hobbit_, _The Silmarilion_, etc.) not as the history of a fictional world, but as the **fictional history of the real world.** Middle Earth is Europe, but set in some forgotten time. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/30 "2004-09-04T05:05:21Z")
> [@willco82](#): > > and I know Frodo is writing The Lord of the Rings. But I don’t think the last line of Tolkien’s book is the last line we see Frodo writing in the movie. And the last part of the voiceover is this: > > “How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand there is no going back. There are some things that time can not mend. Some hurts that go too deep…that have taken hold. Do you ever really heal?” > > But that seems like such a pessimistic last line for Frodo to be writing. I guess I’m just assuming it’s something a little more uplifting, or at least something with a little more closure. The voiceover you’ve written is the same as I remember it from watching the movie – it’s definitely not the last line of Lord of the Rings, which Tolkien himself claims was written after Frodo left Middle Earth. The last line of Tolkien’s book is in fact the last line of the movie: “Well, I’m back.” Tolkien fans would have rioted if it were any other way. As for the lines of that voiceover, they sound somewhat familiar to me. I’m too lazy search my copy of The Lord of the Rings for them, but I’m guessing they’re something Frodo said to Sam in the days he spent in Hobbiton before departing Middle Earth. (This time was somewhat more drawn out in the book than it appeared in the movie.) In the book, it is conveyed that Frodo is still suffering from the effects of having worn the Ring for so long (and from the injury inflicted on him by the Nazgul), and his departure into The West, while a very sad moment for the other Hobbits (and the readers), is a welcome relief to Frodo himself. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/31 "2004-09-04T14:05:24Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > **In case anyone is still confused:** > > In **real life** the last sentence of Lord of the Rings is “Well, I’m back” spoken by Sam. (Actually, this is followed by a lengthy appendix containing timelines, family trees, notes on pronunciation, and most of the details of the Aragorn/Arwen romance that the movies worked into the main story.) > > Tolkien pretends he is transcribing _The Red Book of Westmarch_, a **fictional book.** Supposedly Bilbo started it, writing “There and Back Again – a Hobbit’s Tale” and Frodo continued it, writing “The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King.” Sam finished this latter story, which is how Tolkien explains the fact that it includes things like Frodo’s departure from Middle Earth, which Frodo obviously couldn’t have written himself. Bilbo’s part of the Red Book is what Tolkien claims he’s reprinting in _The Hobbit_, whereas Frodo/Sam’s part is what he claims he’s reprinting in _The Lord of the Rings_. Supposedly a great deal more was added to _The Red Book_ sometime later (by some historian from Gondor, if I remember correctly), and some of this is reprinted in the Appendix. This is how Tolkien explains the fact that some of the timelines extend beyond Sam’s death, meaning he couldn’t have written them. Again, this is **fiction** – obviously neither Gondor nor the Shire ever existed, and Tolkien wrote the whole thing himself. > > It’s interesting to note that Tolkien viewed _The Lord of the Rings_ (as well as _The Hobbit_, _The Silmarilion_, etc.) not as the history of a fictional world, but as the **fictional history of the real world.** Middle Earth is Europe, but set in some forgotten time. Excellent job, **Tim**. You said what I implied in post #9 but spelled it out in far more detail. (For your information, the technical analysis-of-fiction term for a presumption-contrary-to-fact of what the writer himself is doing is _conceit_, as I used in post #9 – it has nothing to do with egotism, but is founded in an early borrowing from French, where this means something like “concept.” “Epistollary novels” that purport to be a series of letters sent between the major characters, telling the story through them keeping each other posted about the events of their lives, are another example of this – as, intriguingly, is Tolkien’s friend C.S. Lewis’s, _Out of the Silent Planet_ and _Perelandra_, where the author purports himself to be a friend and colleague of the lead character with a minor role – and William Goldman portrays himself as having been read “The Princess Bride” by S. Morgenstern as a bedtime story when he was young. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/32 "2004-09-06T19:32:34Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Books? They made the movies into books? Yeah, but they were really long-winded and boring. They should’ve farmed them out to Alan Dean Foster. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/33 "2004-09-06T19:47:17Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > Yeah, but they were really long-winded and boring. They should’ve farmed them out to Alan Dean Foster. And what would Alan Dean Foster style LOTR dialog sound like? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/34 "2004-09-06T20:24:08Z")
> [@astro](#): > > And what would Alan Dean Foster style LOTR dialog sound like? The wailing of thousands of damned souls. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/35 "2004-09-07T14:25:18Z")
Yes, Movie Frodo is writing about what Sam has been doing. Tim314 & Polycarp both did good summaries. But I must respond to an earlier post, quoting Wilco "But that seems like such a pessimistic last line for Frodo to be writing. I guess I’m just assuming it’s something a little more uplifting, or at least something with a little more closure. The ending of the books is more obviously sad than the movie ending. Frodo states that somebody has to give things up so that others can have them. Sad but true. Maybe melancholy is a better word than sad. At the end Middle Earth is changing; no one knows yet if for better or worse in the long run. Frodo, for lots of reasons, is not able to enjoy the fruits of his labors, but will find healing in the elven lands before he dies. I don’t like the term “closure”, and I don’t think it was part of Tolkien’s working vocabulary. As Frodo says, some wounds never heal. And yes, I’m a geek. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/36 "2004-09-07T15:06:45Z")
> [@astro](#): > > And what would Alan Dean Foster style LOTR dialog sound like? You know, that’s an interesting idea for a thread… you know, different authors for LOTR? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2004, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/37 "2004-09-07T15:32:43Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > You know, that’s an interesting idea for a thread… you know, different authors for LOTR? > > 😃 ::: envisions **BMalion** being inundated with moldy _lembas_, rancid oliphaunt carcasses, etc. ::: ---
**Author:** ![willco82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/73ab20/32.png) [@willco82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willco82)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/38 "2004-09-16T12:13:18Z")
All that was extremely informative and educational, not to mention interesting…but did anyone ever really determine what the last line was? It’s really killing me and a co-worker of mine… ---
**Author:** ![willco82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/73ab20/32.png) [@willco82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willco82)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-lord-of-the-rings/262737/39 "2004-09-24T12:40:13Z")
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