# Question about musical rhythm used in Hollywood pictures about Native Americans. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257 "2018-02-05T20:30:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/1 "2018-02-05T20:30:06Z")
When I wrote this question to [cecil@straightdope.com](mailto:cecil@straightdope.com), the webmaster suggested that I post it here to same time. I have a long-standing one about where a particular musical style comes from, namely the rhythm of Native American/Indian drums as depicted in motion pictures. Usually the rhythm on the drums is DUM-dum-dum-dum, repeated as long as needed. But whenever I have heard natives beat drums live or on recordings, the rhythm is a steady beat without any one stressed except at the very end to signal the end of the dance or session. So, I was wondering where this particular rhythm came from and how it happened to be associated with Native Americans in various media. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/2 "2018-02-05T23:52:50Z")
I’m curious, have you gone on YouTube and searched for Native American music? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/9UglUjiJifA/maxresdefault.jpg "Ly O Lay Ale Loya (Circle Dance) ~ Native Song") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UglUjiJifA) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/3 "2018-02-06T03:22:12Z")
**Moderator Action** Since this is about music and motion pictures, let’s move it to Cafe Society (from GQ). ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/4 "2018-02-06T03:50:52Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m curious, have you gone on YouTube and searched for Native American music? > > [https://youtu.be/9UglUjiJifA](https://youtu.be/9UglUjiJifA) Yes, there is Native music as heard at dances and other gatherings of Native Americans, more modern interpretations such as this, and the stereotypical Hollywood usage. I was wondering where the Hollywood variety comes from, it dates from early in the sound era, but I have never been able to find a corresponding rhythm in the examples of original Native music that I have encountered. ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/5 "2018-02-06T03:52:16Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Action** > > Since this is about music and motion pictures, let’s move it to Cafe Society (from GQ). Thank you, this is my first post and I had no idea where to put it. ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/6 "2018-02-06T04:00:03Z")
Frequently the Hollywood music appears to make use of a harmonic style earlier than polyphony called organum in which the notes move evenly at spaced intervals. The original Native music that I have heard never makes use of Western harmony. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/7 "2018-02-06T04:12:34Z")
I think you’re just hearing what a non-Native American played drums like, even when they were trying to play without any accent or downbeat. The downbeat is pretty ingrained into Western music and has been for a very long time, to the point where I wouldn’t be surprised if people were heading a downbeat even when none was actually present. That’s my WAG. ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/8 "2018-02-06T04:33:47Z")
Quite possibly, though there is definitely a stress on the first of four beats as done by Hollywood movies. The piece that comes to mind is at the end of the Indian attack in How the West Was Won, but it doesn’t seem to be on YouTube. The rhythm was also used in popular songs, such as Running Bear from the early 1960’s. War whoops and everything. This is the rhythm that I’m wondering where it came from, since I have never heard it used in Native music. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PI4HYVIvuJE/hqdefault.jpg "JOHNNY PRESTON\_ RUNNING BEAR.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PI4HYVIvuJE) ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/9 "2018-02-06T04:36:17Z")
And I’m wondering how this rhythm came to be associated with American Indians. Sorry for the multiple posts, but editing previous posts doesn’t seem to work. ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/10 "2018-02-06T04:51:23Z")
Native Americans singing and beating drums definitely have no stressed beat, except at the very end to indicate the finish of the song. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Z3LawtTtImc/hqdefault.jpg "American Indians drumming and singing") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3LawtTtImc) ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/11 "2018-02-06T05:13:15Z")
> [@fritzkep](#): > > Sorry for the multiple posts, but editing previous posts doesn’t seem to work. Welcome to the SDMB, fritzkep! One of the board policies is that there’s a five-minute edit window on posts; after that, they can’t be edited further. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/12 "2018-02-06T10:54:52Z")
> [@fritzkep](#): > > Quite possibly, though there is definitely a stress on the first of four beats as done by Hollywood movies. Welcome. I am sorry I can’t answer your question. My WAG would be that some Hollywood composer equated an tom tom drumbeat with “savage Other folks” and the Native Americans got folded into that. I doubt anyone was paying attention to ethnology recordings. As for your question about the emphasis on the first beat, perhaps they were progenitors of funk? [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4) ;). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/13 "2018-02-06T14:16:07Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Welcome to the SDMB, fritzkep! One of the board policies is that there’s a five-minute edit window on posts; after that, they can’t be edited further. Ah, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/14 "2018-02-06T14:17:12Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Welcome. I am sorry I can’t answer your question. My WAG would be that some Hollywood composer equated an tom tom drumbeat with “savage Other folks” and the Native Americans got folded into that. I doubt anyone was paying attention to ethnology recordings. > > As for your question about the emphasis on the first beat, perhaps they were progenitors of funk? [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IHE6hZU72A4) ;). 😃 🙂 Entirely possible! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![fritzkep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fritzkep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fritzkep)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/15 "2018-02-06T18:26:01Z")
> [@fritzkep](#): > > Frequently the Hollywood music appears to make use of a harmonic style earlier than polyphony called organum in which the notes move evenly at spaced intervals. The original Native music that I have heard never makes use of Western harmony. On second thought, describing the harmony as organum is not correct; rather, a lot of the stereotypical music made use of the tritone, an interval of three adjacent whole tones, one which in early music was considered evil. No doubt a reason why this interval was used in depicting Native Americans at the time. ---
**Author:** ![jerez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c68b51/32.png) [@jerez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerez)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/16 "2018-02-06T19:15:57Z")
> [@fritzkep](#): > > …the tritone, an interval of three adjacent whole tones, one which in early music was considered evil. No doubt a reason why this interval was used in depicting Native Americans at the time. No, a tritone is C and F#, for example. It’s what you get when you split an octave in half (in Western music, anyway). If you want to investigate this, a good starting point might be to see if you can find an example in prewar cartoons (Popeye, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/17 "2018-02-06T19:28:33Z")
[quote=“fritzkep, post:10, topic:808257”] Native Americans singing and beating drums definitely have no stressed beat, except at the very end to indicate the finish of the song. [/QUOTE] That one appears to have lyrics. What about the ones where they’re just singing ‘HEY-yay-yay-yay, hey-yay-yay-yay…’ Is that a Hollywood thing? Or is it the Native American version of ‘La-la-la’? ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/18 "2018-02-06T19:59:02Z")
> [@jerez](#): > > No, a tritone is C and F#, for example. I believe that’s what he was saying. Starting on C, go up three whole tones and you’ll arive at F#. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/19 "2018-02-06T20:01:10Z")
> [@jerez](#): > > No, a tritone is C and F#, for example. It’s what you get when you split an octave in half (in Western music, anyway). I think **fritzkep** just phrased it inelegantly. The interval in your example, C to F#, comprises three whole steps. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257/20 "2018-02-06T20:07:10Z")
ETA: Actually, the “three adjacent whole tones” phrasing appears to be quite common. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-musical-rhythm-used-in-hollywood-pictures-about-native-americans/808257.md?page=2)