# Question about police presence at 49ers football games **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 5, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138 "2016-09-05T22:28:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/41 "2016-09-07T17:37:04Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Are the team going to change their name to the Santa Clara 49ers? Same time we get the Joisey Giants. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/42 "2016-09-07T17:38:52Z")
Well, yeah. Football isn’t important, but truth and accuracy in labeling are. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/43 "2016-09-07T17:43:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Kaepernik’s right to speak freely at his workplace is an issue between him and his employer. If the 49ers prohibited him from sitting during the national anthem while he’s working for them, they would be within their rights. This is the main thing I was interested in clarifying. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But it’s a different issue when the government gets involved. The First Amendment is a limitation on government action. Police officers are representatives of the government. > > So police officers are prohibited from using their authority to put pressure on the 49ers or on Colin Kaepernik to stand during the national anthem. That would be government interference with free speech. > > And the same would be true if some player started wearing a swastika armband during games. If his team was okay with it, then the police couldn’t tell him to remove it. I agree it would be unconstitutional for people to be arrested for sitting during the anthem. To tell the truth, though, I would like to find a way to arrest people for wearing swastika armbands. Then try them in kangaroo courts, drumhead tribunals, and such. Then reopen Alcatraz, and cram them in. And BTW I notice that people here and on the other numerous discussion boards I post at tend to lack any sense of irony. They take every word posted as literally meant. They really should get over this failing. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/44 "2016-09-07T17:57:28Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > This is the main thing I was interested in clarifying. > I agree it would be unconstitutional for people to be arrested for sitting during the anthem. I don’t know that it would be constitutional for an employer to force a player to stand for the anthem either. You may decided not to renew their contract, or to find something else to discipline or fire them about, but I am not sure that an employer can compel an employee to perform a political activity. I could be wrong on this though, anyone more informed on the nuances of the constitution and employment is welcome to correct me. > [@](#): > > To tell the truth, though, I would like to find a way to arrest people for wearing swastika armbands. Then try them in kangaroo courts, drumhead tribunals, and such. Then reopen Alcatraz, and cram them in. That’s easy, just repeal the first amendment, and have at. While I find anyone who would wear nazi regalia reprehensible, they do have that right under our constitution. > [@](#): > > And BTW I notice that people here and on the other numerous discussion boards I post at tend to lack any sense of irony. They take every word posted as literally meant. They really should get over this failing. People assuming that you mean what you say? People taking your statements seriously? Oh, the horror. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/45 "2016-09-07T17:58:30Z")
I am not a lawyer, but as I understand it, given that doing security at 49ers games is not part of their job and that it is extracurricular activity, there can’t be consequences enforced for their not doing it. You might as well punish a cop for his failure to bake muffins and give them to his elderly neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/46 "2016-09-07T18:09:25Z")
A lot of people here are stuck on Kaepernick’s refusal to stand during the National Anthem as what this is about. While I’m sure that his decision did irritate quite a few officers, it’s not the true spark of what caused the union’s action. It’s what Kaepernick wore afterwards. Google pig socks. And _that’s_ what the union is saying is creating a hostile work environment. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/47 "2016-09-07T18:34:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t see how you got that for the OP. He was quite clear that he thought it was a moonlighting job, but was asking the rest of us to make sure. At any rate, it is voluntary, and not a part of their job duties. I’ve always thought moonlighting meant you were working a second job that was unconnected to your regular job. Here’s the way I see it. There are three possibilities. 1. You’re a police officer working your regular shift and you were assigned to the stadium. 2. You’re a police officer who would normally be off-duty but you volunteered to work overtime as a police officer at the stadium. 3. You’re an off-duty police officer who’s working a second job as private security at the stadium. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/48 "2016-09-07T19:43:10Z")
> [@Hocus\_Pocus](#): > > A lot of people here are stuck on Kaepernick’s refusal to stand during the National Anthem as what this is about. While I’m sure that his decision did irritate quite a few officers, it’s not the true spark of what caused the union’s action. It’s what Kaepernick wore afterwards. Google pig socks. > > And _that’s_ what the union is saying is creating a hostile work environment. was not just the socks. His statement that police officers are allowed to murder people and receive full pay while the incident is being investigated. He sees nothing wrong in being guilty until proven innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/49 "2016-09-07T20:26:17Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > was not just the socks. His statement that police officers are allowed to murder people and receive full pay while the incident is being investigated. He sees nothing wrong in being guilty until proven innocent. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/50 "2016-09-07T21:42:30Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > was not just the socks. His statement that police officers are allowed to murder people and receive full pay while the incident is being investigated. He sees nothing wrong in being guilty until proven innocent. Though, to be fair, most people under a murder investigation are locked up for the duration, and do not get paid. Even if found innocent of charges, they are often let go from their jobs, as there is no innocent until proven guilty clause in employment law. Police do a get a perk there that most would not get. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/51 "2016-09-07T22:22:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Though, to be fair, most people under a murder investigation are locked up for the duration, and do not get paid. Even if found innocent of charges, they are often let go from their jobs, as there is no innocent until proven guilty clause in employment law. Police do a get a perk there that most would not get. You are actually saying that people are locked up just for being part of a murder investigation before and during an investigation? Cite? Because where I come from (America) you get locked up after you are charged with a crime which happens at the end of an investigation. And you are wrong about the second part also. You can easily be within the law and still violate department policy and procedures. Often an officer who was found to not violate the law still gets disciplined up to and including losing his job. Most departmental discipline does not make the news. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/52 "2016-09-07T23:33:48Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m not convinced that I need to do anything of the sort. Perhaps you could persuade me by parsing where in my post I contended his constitutional right to one form of political expression, yet “abruptly cancel[led] that right in the case of another form of political expression.” > > For your convenience, I will reproduce the post here: > > Please note that I DID say that the constitution would have nothing to say about any response the 49ers might take wrt swastika wearing. If I failed to make clear my understanding that the constitution would also not be implicated should they choose to attempt to sanction him under the terms of his contract about the “sitting down” events, please accept my apologies for the lack of skill in my writing. Well, I could haggle over the ambiguity introduced by use of such words as “fuzzier” and constitutionally “enumerated” rights (as opposed to the myriad of constitutional rights which have been judicially inferred). But that would be dissimulation because the truth is I seem to have confounded you with others such as with Nemo in post #2 to this thread. _Mea culpa._ ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/53 "2016-09-07T23:44:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t know that it would be constitutional for an employer to force a player to stand for the anthem either. You may decided not to renew their contract, or to find something else to discipline or fire them about, but I am not sure that an employer can compel an employee to perform a political activity. Previously addressed by comments about team, league and commissioner’s discretionary powers. See post #37. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I could be wrong on this though, anyone more informed on the nuances of the constitution and employment is welcome to correct me. I agree it would be nice to get the view of someone like Bricker. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s easy, just repeal the first amendment, and have at. While I find anyone who would wear nazi regalia reprehensible, they do have that right under our constitution. > > People assuming that you mean what you say? People taking your statements seriously? Oh, the horror. Thank you for the collapse into witless self-parody which does as much as anything could to make my point. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/54 "2016-09-08T00:26:20Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t know that it would be constitutional for an employer to force a player to stand for the anthem either. You may decided not to renew their contract, or to find something else to discipline or fire them about, but I am not sure that an employer can compel an employee to perform a political activity. > > I could be wrong on this though, anyone more informed on the nuances of the constitution and employment is welcome to correct me. I don’t agree. Here’s an example: I cast you in a movie about Herbert Hoover, and include in my movie the moment when Hoover signs into law the congressional resolution making the Star Spangled Banner the national anthem. In that scene, I write into the screenplay that a band on the White House lawn plays the music, and I direct you to stand. As an employee, you must do so, and if you don’t, I can fire you. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/55 "2016-09-08T00:55:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It would be an interesting test case-- can employers compel patriotic acts. Could an employer forbid employees to have political bumper stickers on their cars-- that is, not cars with political bumper sticker allowed in the parking lot? Loach has in posts # 11-19-22 provided several excellent citations for the extensive powers employers have to discipline and fire employees. That includes the NFL, which has fined players for everything from homophobic tweets to complaining about raining camp food. It also includes political bumper stickers: See link: [Can Employers Do That?](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123024596) > [@](#): > > Lynne Gobbell was fired because her boss didn’t like the bumper sticker on her car. > > During the 2004 presidential election, Gobbell put a “Kerry for President” sticker on her bumper. When her boss saw it, he said Gobbell could “either work for John Kerry or work for me.” Gobbell refused to take the sticker off her car and was immediately fired… > > …Lynne Gobbell’s freedom, and yours, disappears every morning when you go to work. The United States Constitution applies to the government, not to corporations. A private business, large or small, can legally ignore your freedom of speech. Where your employer is concerned, you have no such right. Human nature being what it is employers may sometimes be a dick _for_ taking action, as in Gobbel’s case, and sometimes for _not_ taking action, as in Kaepernik’s case. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/56 "2016-09-08T00:59:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As an employee, you must do so, and if you don’t, I can fire you. That’s exactly what he said in the post you quoted. What the director can’t make you do is act against your will. A coach can cut you for not standing for the national anthem, but he can’t force you to stand. I think you’re in violent agreement. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/57 "2016-09-08T01:06:44Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s exactly what he said in the post you quoted. What the director can’t make you do is act against your will. A coach can cut you for not standing for the national anthem, but he can’t force you to stand. > > I think you’re in violent agreement. Actually the original quote was “You may decided not to renew their contract, or to \*find something else \*to discipline or fire them about” (emphasis added) implying that they couldn’t be fired for refusing to stand for the anthem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/58 "2016-09-08T01:31:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree. > > Here’s an example: I cast you in a movie about Herbert Hoover, and include in my movie the moment when Hoover signs into law the congressional resolution making the Star Spangled Banner the national anthem. > > In that scene, I write into the screenplay that a band on the White House lawn plays the music, and I direct you to stand. > > As an employee, you must do so, and if you don’t, I can fire you. But that’s not a political activity. It’s acting. A director can make you say “nigger”, but that doesn’t make you a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/59 "2016-09-08T02:12:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that’s not a political activity. It’s acting. A director can make you say “nigger”, but that doesn’t make you a racist. By that measure the NFL can compel someone to stand for the National Anthem, salute, speak a pledge, and so on because they are paid to perform before an audience. That performance doesn’t have to be athletic either, ask Marshawn Lynch who was fined for refusing to speak with the media. Doing so under direction is no less acting than it would be if they were in a film role. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138/60 "2016-09-08T12:33:53Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Do employee of private businesses have a constitutional right to conduct political activity while on the job? (Do government employees?) > > Or is all this crap about Kaepernik’s “rights” just a load? > > And if there is such a right then I guess swastika armbands are as constitutional as anything. The NFL has extremely detailed and rigid guidelines regarding clothing of any kind worn on the field or off that is tied to your team. The league does not get to dictate or demand relinquishing Constitutional rights. And since your armband remark wasn’t specifically directed at C.K., the wearing of such an item is protected free speech in the United States. ( Unlike Germany, where that behavior is explicitly verboten.) You may face some hassles from L.E.O.'s who don’t like it, and in the 2016 mindset the wearing of a Nazi armband may be interpreted as Hate Speech. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-police-presence-at-49ers-football-games/765138.md?page=4)