# Question about "Purgatory" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671 "2002-11-30T21:02:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TerryW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee59a6/32.png) [@TerryW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TerryW)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/1 "2002-11-30T21:02:55Z")
Greetings. I heard/read that Catholics believe in purgatory… but from the research that my brother and I have done in the Bible (he’s read it over 3 times, and kept an eye out for it) there is no mention of purgatory. The general attitude towards it, at least from where I live, is that the Church “invented” it in order to appeal to hesitant Romans, who didn’t like the idea of **just** having heaven and hell. This makes sense to me, because a it’s not the only invented ritual that the Catholics have, if the research is correct. (the King James version of the Bible was used… along with a study bible) So, the question is: **Where did purgatory originate from, and and how is it justified?** (_by the way: saying “the Pope said it was true” means nothing, I’m looking for evidence shown by Jesus_) ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/2 "2002-11-30T22:04:28Z")
IIRC (and I’m not Catholic so bear with me) it has it’s origins in Old Testament scripture, the Second Book of the Maccabees 12:39-12:45ish (not in the King James Bible, unless you have one that contains the Apocrypha). The second book makes reference to atonement for the dead. > [@](#): > > **"Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."** In the writings of Augustine (died, 430 A.D.) the doctrine of purgatory was first given definite form and it became more formalized somewhere around 590 to 604 A.D when Gregory the Great held the papal office. The doctrine was proclaimed an article of faith in 1439, by the Council of Florence. Some argue that the concept has origins in Babylonian, Greek, and Roman mythology. Protestant Reformation didn’t seem to like the notion much, but it was still reaffirmed by the Catholic Church. The Catechism basically goes: > [@](#): > > \*\*“All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification…” (Catechism p.268, para #1030, 1031). \*\* Purgatory is commonly rejected by non-Catholics because it conflicts with the concept that one’s salvation depends _entirely_ on accepting Christ as one’s personal Savior. Period. Tah-dah. The end. As in “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6). I have no idea how the Catholic reconcilse that with the later teachings of Jesus. Again I am not a Catholic (and my mommy got kicked out of Sunday school for asking too many questions.) So in a nutshell: It’s origins are from Old Testament era scriptures, and no, you aren’t likely to find references to it in the King James Bible. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/3 "2002-11-30T23:23:53Z")
Catholic teaching on Purgatory _does_ come from the book II Maccabees, as noted. This, of course, raises the issues of the teachings on Purgatory, itself, addressed in several previous threads: [What’s the Catholic Church’s position on this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32932) and [Do Christians who sin still go to heaven?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90176) and the more recent thread in **GD** : [Why “purgatory”? Is this indecision by God?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144018) as well as discussions regarding the Apocrypha: [Who uses the Apocrypha?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125300) The Apocrypha is also mentioned near the end of the Straight Dope Staff Report on [Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1)](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html) [Who wrote the Bible? (Part 2)](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible2.html) [Who wrote the Bible? (Part 3)](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible3.html) [Who wrote the Bible? (Part 4)](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html) [Who wrote the Bible? (Part 5)](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible5.html) ---
**Author:** ![Harmonix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Harmonix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonix)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/4 "2002-12-01T03:24:22Z")
I started a thread relating to this purgatory thing. [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=147135) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/5 "2002-12-01T09:05:42Z")
To Tomndebb: You may be aware that the persons who died were slain for idolatry, which Catholic doctrine has classified as a “mortal sin,” not one for which person are supposed to suffer in purgatory. 2 Machabees 12:43, 44, in any case, refers to prayer for resurrection, not to alleviate or forestall suffering in purgatory. When I was a kid I read in a riddle book: Q. Why is _i_ the happiest of the vowels? A. Because it is alone in bliss, while _e_ is in hell and all the other vowels are in purgatory. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/6 "2002-12-01T17:12:20Z")
> [@](#): > > 2 Machabees 12:43, 44, in any case, refers to prayer for resurrection, not to alleviate or forestall suffering in purgatory. It is a thought that is developed: If we may pray for the resurrection of those who have died, they must be in some state where resurrection is possible–not eternally damned. If they are not damned, and if prayers for them have value, then they must be in a state that is less than paradise, yet better than damnation. What could that state be? A place of repentance for sins. What do our actions do? Seek intercession for those persons with God. Now, one can argue against that train of thought or that belief (preferably in **GD** ), but one should at least recognize that there is 2,000 years of thought behind it (that is shared by both Catholics and Orthodox\*) and that it is not some whim inserted into religion at some late date. \*Orthodox do not use the expression of Purgatory that Catholics do, but they share the concept of the final repentance of one’s own sins. ---
**Author:** ![mok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mok)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-purgatory/139671/7 "2002-12-01T17:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TerryW \* > (the King James version of the Bible was used… along with a study bible) > > … > > (_by the way: saying “the Pope said it was true” means nothing, I’m looking for evidence shown by Jesus_) \*\* **TerryW,** A couple points, which others have also referred to. **First** , there is no “one” accepted version of the Christian scriptures. There are lots of translations, lots of versions, and as pointed out, many Christian traditions use versions of the Bible that have books not found in other versions. If you are asking a question for informational purposes about certain Christian traditions, then you should realize that those traditions may not be working off the King James version of the Bible. Consider that the books making up the Bible were not written in English, and that humans have been the ones who have decided over the millenia which books are each version and which aren’t. As pointed out, the usual scriptural basis for Purgatory is in II Maccabees, which you will not find in the translation authorized by King James of England. **Second** : you are asking a question about what Catholics believe. (I infer that you are a non-Anglican Protestant Christian, although you do not state as much.) The Roman Catholics (for that matter, nearly all versions of Chiristianity) do have many customs that are not directly stated in the Bible, but are rather seen as justified by custom or other extra-scriptural sources. Now, I understand that you many not **share** their views. However, that does not mean they have no justification, it just means that you don’t agree with its validity. In other words, if the answer were “because the Pope said so”, well, then, that would be the answer. This is the GQ forum, right? Just because you say it “means nothing” doesn’t mean that isn’t the answer. Finally, let me point out that most Protestant churches believe in a whole lot of things that were not “evidence shown by Jesus”. The accounts of Creation in Genesis, for example. -mok