# Question about "safe, sane, and consensual" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 29, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312 "2018-04-29T17:31:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/1 "2018-04-29T17:31:48Z")
What exactly is the distinction between “safe” and “sane”? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/2 "2018-04-29T18:37:35Z")
Huh? From Google: Safe: > [@](#): > > adjective > adjective: safe; comparative adjective: safer; superlative adjective: safest > > ``` > 1. > protected from or not exposed to danger or risk; not likely to be harmed or lost. > "eggs remain in the damp sand, safe from marine predators" > > 2. > uninjured; with no harm done. > "they had returned safe and sound" > > ``` > > noun > noun: safe; plural noun: safes > > ``` > 1. > a strong fireproof cabinet with a complex lock, used for the storage of valuables. > synonyms: strongbox, safety-deposit box, safe-deposit box, coffer, strongroom, vault > "I keep the ring in a safe" > 2. > North American informal > a condom. > > ``` Sane: > [@](#): > > ``` > (of a person) of sound mind; not mad or mentally ill. > "hard work kept me sane" > > ``` Consensual > [@](#): > > ``` > relating to or involving consent or consensus. > "he admitted to having consensual sex with two women" > > ``` It looks like you are talking about a particular, narrow context; please clarify ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/3 "2018-04-29T18:56:41Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > It looks like you are talking about a particular, narrow context; please clarify It appears that the OP is referring to the words as used in the context of BDSM (Bondage-Discipline/Dominance-Submission/Sadism-Masochism). From [Wiki:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe,_sane_and_consensual) > [@](#): > > safe: attempts should be made to identify and prevent risks to health > > sane: activities should be undertaken in a sane and sensible frame of mind > > consensual: all activities should involve the full consent of all parties involved. Note, though, that legal consent may not create a defence to criminal liability for any injuries caused; furthermore, this is not necessarily limited to physical injury. The distinction seems pretty straightforward to me. If the OP intended some other context, they should clarify what it is. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/4 "2018-04-30T01:29:32Z")
Sane: the people involved are not merely of adult age as the calendar establishes it but are of sound mind. Intended as a broader term than the “adults” portion of “between consenting adults”. It could be expressed better IMO. Safe: the activities are not approached in such a way as to leave the participants vulnerable to unnecessary and avoidable risk. Where “consensual” says that we aren’t going to be doing things to people on purpose against their conscious will, “safe” expands that to say we also aren’t going to put people in situations where things happen to them that they would not have opted for if they’d known what they were getting into, but now that they’re in those situations there’s no way out. Think: safe word. A failsafe exit strategy, a mechanism for bailout. Think also: some safety awareness pertaining to the specific activity. If it involves tying up someone with rope, this would be about knowing where not to put the rope, how to check periodically for circulation, cautions about the location of other people near the scene, etc. If it involves impact tools like whips or paddles, this would be about places where one should avoid striking, due to nerve clusters and/or bones, and organs susceptible to damage. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/5 "2018-04-30T16:24:12Z")
The “sane” part includes not “playing” while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/6 "2018-04-30T19:44:59Z")
SSC was a slogan coined 35 years ago to distinguish consensual BDSM activities from pathological behavior, to make clear that what was being talked about was “two or more consenting adults doing things that they all want to” and not a serial killer abducting, torturing, and raping victims, or people going to such extremes that they ruin their lives. It was intended to be a quick, catchy saying and not some kind of prescriptive rule or deep philosophy. It also wasn’t really made for word-by-word analysis. In the intervening four decades, people have turned it into a variety of other things. Marker Rik’s comment is simply incorrect, BTW. SSC was coined back when most of the ‘public scene’ of BDSM took place in gay bars, where there was plenty of drinking, and when recreational drug use was hugely popular. I don’t think any of the people creating the slogan 35 years ago would have accepted the idea that ‘if you drink, it’s not SSC.’ That’s also really a silly idea when you think about it - ordinary sex is significantly more dangerous than most common BDSM activities (risk of pregnancy from a flogging or ordering telling someone to clean your house while wearing panties is a flat zero, for example), but the people who say to never mix any kind of alcohol and S&M don’t ever seem to say to never engage in any sexual activity. One of the people responsible for coining the term in the first place has an article about it that you should read. [http://www.boybear.us/ssc.pdf](http://www.boybear.us/ssc.pdf) > [@David Stein](#): > > What we meant by “safe S/M” back in 1983 — as the full GMSMA statement of purpose implies — was the opposite of careless, irresponsible, or uninformed S/M. We meant doing your homework and taking reasonable precautions. We never intended to promote only G-rated S/M or to turn the leather scene into a risk-free playpen where pain doesn’t really hurt, bondage isn’t really constraining, and dominance is being ordered to do what you want to do anyway. > > We left “sane” and “consensual” much vaguer, “sane” because it’s pretty vague anyway once you get past the obvious meaning — “able to distinguish fantasy from reality” — and “consensual” because we didn’t realize how tricky it is. We didn’t have the benefit of a couple of decades of rising awareness of just how hard it can be to leave an abusive spouse. We did not discuss, back then, whether consent was something you could give once and for all, or if it has to be renewed continuously — the now-familiar paradoxes of “consensual nonconsensuality.” Without such an > analysis, however, it’s all too easy to read the requirement of consensuality as analogous to the rules against “date rape,” meaning that the top, dominant, or Master/Mistress has to stop and ask permission of the bottom, submissive, or slave at each point where the type of activity changes. This might work okay in a play session between people who are simply interested in sharing certain sensations, but it would fatally subvert any ongoing Dominant/submissive or Master/slave relationship — or even the kind of intense S/M scenes where the bottom goes nonverbal and is > temporarily unable to make choices. > > The choice GMSMA faced back in 1983 was whether to explore/discuss/defend the full range of S/M behavior — thus opening ourselves to attack based on every case of predatory sadomasochism critics could uncover, or invent — or to limit the field in some way. By saying we were interested in “safe, sane, and consensual S/M,” we were trying to draw a very basic distinction: between, on one hand, the bondage, torture, or control inflicted on willing partners for mutual satisfaction and, on the other hand, the coercive abuse of unwilling victims. We thought this restriction would leave those hostile to all S/M no rational basis for objection to what GMSMA was up to, exposing the more fundamental sex phobia that underlies most attempts to police sexual expression. (Setting ourselves up as a new brand of sex police was the farthest thing from our minds.) At the same time, we felt that the SSC emphasis would help those of us who had to some extent internalized the same prejudices — which back then meant most of us! — to accept that you don’t have to become a victim or a predator to satisfy sexual needs for pain or control. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/7 "2018-04-30T19:47:51Z")
“Sane” seems to be the real slippery term here. It’s easy for the majority to define anything they don’t like as not sane. Going by the famous “I know it when I see it” slippery slope precedent, consensual flogging may easily fall into the not-sane category. In fact, doesn’t Canada already have laws that say that a person cannot consent to be assaulted and that such assault is illegal, thus essentially banning BDSM in Canada? ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/8 "2018-04-30T19:55:16Z")
“Sane” means you are connected to reality. “Safe” means you aren’t hurting anybody. “Consensual” means they agreed to it. I think they threw in “sane” because it doesn’t matter if you get consent from someone who is disconnected from reality because they don’t know what they are consenting to. This probably covers mentally ill people, children, and people who are zonked out on drugs. I’m reminded of a science fiction story about a time traveler who wound up in an insane asylum. The time traveler noticed that no one in the asylum was allowed to have sex and deduced that this was some form of punishment. It was very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-safe-sane-and-consensual/813312/9 "2018-05-01T14:23:09Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Marker[sic] Rik’s comment is simply incorrect Well, I wasn’t there when the term was coined. But things evolve over time, and at least some communities _do_ now include being sober/not under the influence during “play” sessions as part of the definition. Spanking implement manufacturer Cane-iac’s “Ten Commandments of Safe Play” for example (see #7 & #8): [http://www.cane-iac.com/tencommandments.asp](http://www.cane-iac.com/tencommandments.asp)