# Question about Scottish dialectic usage **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 28, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746 "2014-08-28T13:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/1 "2014-08-28T13:04:03Z")
Hello all– So I’m writing a work of fiction that has American characters and Scottish characters. It’s mildly sci fi/fantasy type stuff and for various complicated reasons a lot of the American characters have Old Timey, Appalachian type accents, with which I am intimately familiar and can write well and accurately. I feel it’s only fair to do some phonetic representation of Scots, too, but I need help with a particular usage. Sometimes, I understand, the negative contractions (did not, will not, could not, etc) begin to take “nae” instead of “not”. So, didnae, willnae, couldnae. My question is, what kind of social cues does this give? Is it something everyone does? Is it uneducated? Is it something done when a person is relaxed with friends? Might it happen when a person is upset and yelling? Is it a “hearth” usage? Is it something that would never in a million years be done in front of someone with another, English or American, accent? I have no idea, so can anyone give opinions? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/2 "2014-08-28T14:36:36Z")
It varies a bit by region - not all Scottish accents are the same, of course. In the Glasgow area it’s fairly common to hear people speak that way, and I suppose it might perhaps mark the speaker out as working class. As to whether you’d speak that way to an English person or an American, well, I suppose it depends on how well you know the person and whether you expect them to understand you. Scottish people tend to code switch quite a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/3 "2014-08-28T14:42:22Z")
That contraction is really widespread in casual speech. The First Minister uses it, for example. Genteel upper-middle-class types tend not to use it ime, but it’s not a guaranteed signifier of level of education or anything like that. I know a French woman who has lived in Scotland for years, and she uses it in the most adorable way. You probably know, but “nae” isn’t just used for “not”, but also “no” too eg “Yiv nae chance wae yon” ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/4 "2014-08-28T14:42:22Z")
You could always rent [So I Married and Axe Murderer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_I_Married_an_Axe_Murderer) or any movie with Sean Connery in it… 😃 I worked in Aberdeen several years ago and heard on occasion - usually in a pub - but almost never at work. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/5 "2014-08-28T15:09:01Z")
By someone who speaks that way ( wae), it would be normal unflustered usage. It gives no class connotations, except that the Scottish upper classes have their own accents, or shades of accents ( these would be similar to English Public School, or Scottish Public School ( such as Fettes or Gordonstoune ) including Edinborough Morningside. These are not common and nowadays one is going to encounter the majority of Scots as speaking much like English people ( although with a burr, or in the Highlands, as would be expected, higher voices ). Scots ( which is a language ) with the _nae_ usage you example just blends in, some have it others less so. Hieland, which is not separate from Scots, is more akin to Gaelic, and may be found in the works of Neil Munro and Compton Mackenzie’s more Scottish works. The lowlands have many different accents, some with this usage, some not, but in general Scots may be as awed by class or money as any others on earth but they are very egalitarian and don’t judge by any accent ( except of course that extreme upper class accents get extra-added respect ). It is not uneducated. Striving people, perhaps more in the past than now, especially non socially complacent women, might push themselves or their families to a higher class usage generally ( and this is world-universal ) and drop the folksy. The idea that Scots would be embarrassed by any of their numerous accents is laughable. I lived in a part of Scotland where each village needed translators to understand one another ( The Scottish Borders ). ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/6 "2014-08-28T15:59:27Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That contraction is really widespread in casual speech. The First Minister uses it, for example. Genteel upper-middle-class types tend not to use it ime, but it’s not a guaranteed signifier of level of education or anything like that. I know a French woman who has lived in Scotland for years, and she uses it in the most adorable way. > > You probably know, but “nae” isn’t just used for “not”, but also “no” too eg “Yiv nae chance wae yon” And to further confuse matters, “no” can be used as a substitute for “not”, as in “Yuv no tae dae that.” But rethinking my original answer, you’re right - I’ve heard people from many different backgrounds use the form described in the OP. **Claverhouse** - Scots code switch in order to make themselves understood, not because they’re “embarrassed” by their accents. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/7 "2014-08-28T16:04:37Z")
Nitpick: Dialect, not dialectic. “Dialectic” means something else. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/8 "2014-08-28T16:07:25Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > And to further confuse matters, “no” can be used as a substitute for “not”, as in “Yuv no tae dae that.” The classic is the exchange “Gonnae no dae that!”, “How no?”,“Jist gonnae no!” which means (somehow) “Don’t do that!”, “Why not?”, “Just don’t!” ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/9 "2014-08-28T16:13:43Z")
I’ll probably get nitpicked over this, but it depends on whether your characters are more upper or lower class Scots. In general, upper class Scots would have been educated in the Queen’s English and would only choose to speak in dialect for emphasis (the way some American politicians affect a country accent). Working-class or Highlander type Scots would have a thicker accent with more dialect. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/10 "2014-08-28T16:53:30Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > **Claverhouse** - Scots code switch in order to make themselves understood, not because they’re “embarrassed” by their accents. God in Heaven, that is exactly what I said: ‘_The idea that Scots would be embarrassed by any of their numerous accents is laughable_.’ People seem to find reading plain sentences and comprehending them a struggle on these boards. And country folk from Hawick ( pronounced as one would expect ‘_Hoyiiyk !_’ certainly did not switch to make themselves understood. There are a lot of traps in negotiating any group speech. Actually, a general Scotticism would be ‘_inwith_’ or ‘_outwith_’, Scots were terribly surprised when I mentioned that the rest of the world says ‘_within_’. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/11 "2014-08-28T17:04:31Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > God in Heaven, that is exactly what I said: ‘_The idea that Scots would be embarrassed by any of their numerous accents is laughable_.’ > > People seem to find reading plain sentences and comprehending them a struggle on these boards. > > And country folk from Hawick ( pronounced as one would expect ‘_Hoyiiyk !_’ certainly did not switch to make themselves understood. > > There are a lot of traps in negotiating any group speech. Actually, a general Scotticism would be ‘_inwith_’ or ‘_outwith_’, Scots were terribly surprised when I mentioned that the rest of the world says ‘_within_’. Yeah, it is what you said. But since no-one on the thread had suggested that Scots were embarrassed by their accents, I was a little puzzled as to why you brought it up. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/12 "2014-08-28T18:01:55Z")
Thanks so much for the replies, they’re all useful. I just had fun inserting “inwith” in the appropriate spots. Thanks to susan, who is indeed correct. For Pete’s sake, I have a Ph.D in linguistics, and in class discussions we all said “dialectic” but she’s right, dialectic is something else entirely. I guess it wasn’t a prestigious linguistics program. Keep throwing out any common Scotticisms you like… two more hours till I copyright this bad boy. Down to the wire. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/13 "2014-08-28T18:22:33Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Yeah, it is what you said. But since no-one on the thread had suggested that Scots were embarrassed by their accents, I was a little puzzled as to why you brought it up. Perhaps you should have read the OP to start inwith. > [@](#): > > Is it something that would never in a million years be done in front of someone with another, English or American, accent? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/14 "2014-08-28T18:32:11Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Actually, a general Scotticism would be ‘_inwith_’ or ‘_outwith_’, Scots were terribly surprised when I mentioned that the rest of the world says ‘_within_’. I can’t say I’ve ever heard or seen “inwith” used. Whereabouts have you heard it? “Outwith” is very common, just meaning “outside of”. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/15 "2014-08-28T18:33:08Z")
I doubt mesel’ twa 'oors is enough time to download and watch **[Still Game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_Game)**, but for a Glesgae — oldish persons minus the wee **[neddies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_%28Scottish%29)** taking the pish — perspective it incorporates a lot of Scottish mannerisms and talk. It’s kinda depressing watched too much at a time. If only because these people are auld, and living in tower-blocks, and the modern urban landscape is as vile as anywhere else, with no insufficiency of concrete. But it’s funny enough. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/16 "2014-08-28T18:35:19Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I can’t say I’ve ever heard or seen “inwith” used. Whereabouts have you heard it? “Outwith” is very common, just meaning “outside of”. Selkirk, where I lived, down south, and Aberdeen in the far north. Maybe it missed the midlands. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/17 "2014-08-28T18:37:07Z")
… so I’m removing “inwith” and looking for places to put “outwith”? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/18 "2014-08-28T18:53:44Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > … so I’m removing “inwith” and looking for places to put “outwith”? “The word ‘outwith’ is rarely heard outwith Scotland.” ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/19 "2014-08-28T18:55:34Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Perhaps you should have read the OP to start inwith. Right - I read that but didn’t see it as indicative of embarrassment, more of courtesy. Perhaps I misread. Wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746/20 "2014-08-28T18:56:42Z")
Sorry. Did a search and there isn’t a single instance of a Scot saying “outside” in 120K words. Worse luck. Will keep it in mind for future projects. One hour. Going to the gym now. Will come back and check this thread before I start the copyright/ISBN/KDP process. Not that anyone gives a flying f\*\*\* if I change it later, but you know. Self-imposed deadlines give life meaning. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-scottish-dialectic-usage/696746.md?page=2)