Are you offended by having it pointed out that doing such is profiling and that the psychology behind it, the psychology that the op wondered about (and was a beat up a bit for wondering about) is the same psychology, defended with the same sorts of rationalizations, as other profiling is?
The difference that should be pointed out is that the op being profiled is not causing him much harm, might even be giving him an advantage (an empty seat next to him, which I prefer in public spaces anyway). The White cabby profiling Black males is the same psychology but in that case the psychology causes harm to the receipient of the prejudicial behavior. But the psychoogical process and the rationalizations used are the same.
Which is what cabbies who recognize that they are profiling say too: “I’m not racist, I just believe that Black fares represent more of a possible risk to me than do White ones …”
No I do not interpret it as some sort of message. I am just uncomfortable. If I consciously think anything I wonder if the person is from another country that has different personal space norms … we in America have a wider personal space bubble than in many other countries.
Now I admit I am not on buses all that often, but when I am I do not see such segregation. Obviously it happens some as some here admit to the profiling they do and the op observes it, but the norm? I would be surprised. And so if it was? The norm in the South was to segregate on buses by race …
If a woman sat next to me in a movie theater rather than next to another woman and I thought about it at all what I’d think is that she choose that seat for the same reason I choose mine: it was in the position from the screen that she preferred most of the seats that were left. Choosing to sit in a less preferable seat to avoid sitting next to a male? Really?
I would read neither aggressive or sexual on your bus circumstance. Male or female I might read “not from 'round here” and wants to have a conversation just like some people strike up conversations with strangers in elevators. I might think “odd.” Agressive or sexual would not be in my calculus, unless other cues (my unavoidable profiling at work) were in play (dressed like a thug or dressed like a prostitute looking for business)
If someone has been mugged multiple times by person fitting description X then yes, it does make sense to exercise extra caution around people fitting description X. We’re so damn afraid of “profiling” that we won’t admit there are times when it is appropriate. Does that mean develop a phobia about people with X trait? No, it does mean be cautious around them until you have reason to believe them harmless.
Yes, that has happened to me. Why do you doubt this? When I mention it it’s dismissed as anecdote. Well, people claim it doesn’t happen at all and I have experience to the contrary. Nor am I the only one, nor is it limited to one geographic/cultural area - indeed, in some place, like Japan, it’s even worse, to the point people have suggested gender-segregated subway cars.
Ah, here we go, painting a poster as more extreme than they actually are.
Yes, men are potential threats but I don’t keep away from them and I have sat next to male strangers on buses and trains (and the vast majority of the time been completely unmolested, although the verbal harassment is about 50% of the time). It’s just, given a choice, I can completely understand why a woman will choose NOT sit next to an unknown male.
Men are potential threats because it’s men who commit nearly all the rapes and much of the violent crime. This is backed up by statistics both from law enforcement and academia that are trivially easy to find. That’s not the same as advocating separating the genders, but it does indicate a woman should use caution when encountering men she doesn’t know, and even men she knows but not particularly well.
It’s no different than recognizing that some parts of a city are more hazardous than others. That doesn’t mean I’m advocating staying out of those neighborhoods at all costs - I’ve willing gone into some very rough areas - but that if you do, exercise some additional caution and if something starts getting ugly do your best to remove yourself from the hazard. On a bus, if you find the person next to you is a creeper, move to another seat or to a different part of the standing area, call the person out on his behavior, whatever. Or, just sit at that empty seat over that rather than next to this person you don’t know.
Some expressed doubt that this happens at all. Clearly it does. Is it common? No. Murder isn’t common either, statistically speaking, but that doesn’t mean I dismiss it or say it doesn’t happen.
Oh, please, it’s not just that one case, which is on the extreme end of a spectrum of bad behavior. Other gang rapes have occurred in other contexts besides buses, it’s a risk whenever you have large numbers of men and fewer numbers of women in a space that’s relatively confined. Fortunately they’re rare, but don’t pretend they don’t happen.
If it can be proven that 90% of a particular crime X is committed by people with Y trait then it’s not a “rationalization”. Sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape are overwhelmingly committed by men. The victims are overwhelmingly women. Ignoring this is stupid.
Now, as I have said, that doesn’t mean segregating the sexes. It does mean taking that fact into account.
When I’m driving I take precautions against accidents. The fact is, I’m more like to be in a car accident with another vehicle than, say, a tree or a building. Is that “profiling” other vehicles? I take into account what the other vehicles are, for example, giving large trucks more space and remembering they need more distance to stop than a car. Is that “profiling” trucks?
From the female viewpoint it IS the sign of a clueless male teen. In the US a woman has a 1 in 6 chance of being raped in her lifetime. Heck, I take precautions against things I’m a LOT less likely to have happen to me, why wouldn’t I take some actions to minimize the chance of rape? I’ve been harassed more times than I care to count, why shouldn’t I do something as trivial as picking a different seat to avoid it? Am I supposed to increase the my chances of being harassed just to make YOU feel better and less persecuted?
You want women to stop “profiling” men? Then do something about the jerks and jackasses. If a woman on a bus is being harassed by her seat mate and he won’t stop despite her asking him to then call him out on his dick behavior. If a woman claims someone groped her tell the jackass to keep his hands to himself. Don’t let the creepers get away with it anymore. Incubus is trying to make his bus a safe place for women to be where they can sit anywhere because he won’t tolerate that behavior. That’s what it takes to change things, not scolding women who are trying to minimize the chances of being a victim.
Good for you, DSeid, for not thinking the way Manda Jo explained. What you fail to see is that, unlike you, other men DO think that way, DO act that way. Certainly not all, probably not most, but enough do and create uncomfortable situations enough that women prefer to avoid dealing with stranger men in public spaces if they have the chance. Particularly, as even sven pointed out, if they’re young.
I travel mass transit in a place that is very sexist. I have no choice in many occasions but to sit next to strange men, because there are no other spaces available. Most of them are like me, focused on their stuff, knowing that I sit next to them because of necessity. But once in a while, I get stuck with the one who tries to engage in conversation or flirt with me when all I want is to get to work.
I am suddenly reminded of a thread had not too long ago, which ended on some similar lines and arguments.
Also, Slithy, ideas such as thinking that women are the gentler, civilized gender are still sexist. And really, considering what happened in that case, I would have had no problem with death penalty to the perpetrators. I do know that won’t change the bottom line, that the society has to change. But I don’t see those as contradictory thoughts.
If so, would you encourage her to interact with strange men and women the exact same way, under all circumstances?
I try to be fair in my treatment of people, but I admit I’m not the same person when I’m dealing with men versus women. Whenever I am walking somewhere, strangers will sometimes exchange pleasantries with me. Like, they may compliment the hat that I’m wearing. If a woman does it, I’m more likely to smile and compliment something about their outfit. But if a guy does it, I’ll just say thank you and keep on walking.
Experience has taught me that if I stop and talk to the man, he is more likely to ask where I’m going and if he can come with me. Or he’ll ask for my telephone number and try to make me feel bad for not giving it to him. Note that none of these things is illegal or perverted. But they are unwanted.
One day I got caught in bad weather and a woman in a van pulled up and asked if I needed a ride. I’m normally the type to just soldier on, but I couldn’t bear standing out there any longer. If she had been a guy, there’s no way I would have done this. Because a strange man + offering a ride to a strange woman + in a van => risky behavior
If you have a daughter and she told you that she makes the same split-second judgments I have, what would you tell her?
Except there’s no understanding that picking up a black fare means anything. It doesn’t communicate anything except maybe “I’m not racist, or at least not racist enough not to pick up you up”.
I think your norm is not universal in this case. If I were alone on a bus and a man chose to sit next to me when there was a whole bus of empty double seats to sit in, I would absolutely interpret that as a come-on. I would tend to assume he would feel the same way if I did the same thing. If I don’t want to send that message, I wouldn’t do that.
I mean, really, if your wife or daughter came home and told you that they were made uncomfortable by a man choosing to sit next to them in an otherwise empty bus or movie theater, would you really dismiss their concern as xenophobic at best and chide them that the only rational assumption was that the man was from a different culture?
This all changes if there aren’t any other seats. It’s pretty well accepted that on public transport or in a movie theater, needs must. But choosing to invade someone else’s personal space carries weight.
When I see a grandmother from the upscale predominately white suburbs riding Metro to a baseball game avoid sitting next to a large group of black male teens on the subway, yeah, that’s profiling and it sucks. But I don’t feel contempt for granny. Not having much experience with African-Americans, she is basing her decisions off of limited information- probably the TV news and neighborhood gossip. I wish we lived in better integrated neighborhoods, and I wish poverty and the resulting crime wasn’t so split on racial lines. But we don’t, and granny’s decision making is a symptom of the underlying problems. It contributes to a bad dynamic, but really, there isn’t an easy solution.
Likewise, teenage girls are living in an often-hostile environment, with limited experience and limited perspective. are controlling one of the few things they can.
The solution here is to change attitudes about sexual assault, get rid of the victim blaming, and take catcalls and unwanted come-ons seriously.
It’s none of your businesses whether or not a girl or woman is dressing “slutty”. If you feel that her level of dress is not formal enough for a given scenario that’s one thing, if she’s over dressed or underdressed, but you are making this a sexual criticism. By calling her “slutty” you’re not just saying she’s dressed inappropriately, your also saying that by not minimizing the fact she’s a physically mature woman she’s in the wrong. How dare she show skin or curves!
Young women are just as socially awkward as young men, and they’re just as confused and fumbling as young men. She might be over and under dressing and trying various things because she’s trying to dress this body of hers which, in the past year or so, has radically changed shape and she’s not sure what works. Making a fashion mistake does not make a person “slutty”.
Even if she’s dressed like a whore (or how you think a whore dresses) don’t assume she is a whore.
Even if she is a whore she has just as much right to ride the bus without being harassed as you. Maybe she’s tired and going home after a long night of walking the streets and doesn’t want to be bothered any more than that retail clerk also going home after work.
Very important point for a young man to understand: how a woman looks does not determine how you act. Yes, we know you have sexual urges and a pretty woman, or a naked woman, or a woman dressed a particular way is going to make you feel those things and possibly wake up your trouser snake. We know you can’t control that. What you can control is what happens next. You can turn away, you can offer the underdressed girl a jacket to cover up (“Aren’t you cold in that outfit?”), under some circumstances you can tell her that her attire makes you uncomfortable/distracted/is inappropriate for the office (but only sometimes), you can leave the situation… or you can wolf whistle, call her names, touch her inappropriately, or worse.
For a more extreme example: imagine a woman is running naked down a city street. What do you do? Do you assume she is in some form of distress and offer to help her, or call the authorities to help her? Do you ignore her? Do you assume she is “available”, mock her, call her whore, tackle her, hold her down, and rape her?
FORTUNATELY, the vast majority of men in this world are going to do one of the first two choices. Unfortunately, there some men in this world who will pick the third “menu” of choices.
It is both hilariously funny and sadly immature that you believe you know what motivates girls to choose seats on public transit.
(When you get to that psychology course, do look up ‘projection’ in the textbook, please.)
And, it’s okay for you to make some snap judgement on a girl looking slutty, but girls shouldn’t make any snap judgements about where to sit? Double standard much?
When you get to believing you know what others are thinking, you’ve moved into projecting your own issues onto others. The story you have shared tells us nothing of what girls choosing seats actually do. But it reveals a great deal about you.
My youngest, aged 12, is a daughter. I expect her to treat all strangers with the same respect and politeness and to not get in any stranger’s van.
We have had this conversation, sort of, before, and I think you have some sense of where I am coming from. Profiling is not evil, it is human nature and understandable. We should however also be self-aware and honest about it when we do it, and aware of possible impacts our prejudicial behaviors have on others, even if we feel our profiling is justified.
The op was beat up for suggesting that he was being profiled. It was implied that there was something creepy about him for noticing that such was occurring and for wondering why it occurred. That reaction was … interesting … to me. Because clearly he is correct. He is being profiled. Why was the response not just stating something along the lines of this: “Some of us females do profile males because we really just want to be left alone on the bus and experience a subset of males who bother us if we sit near them, and some few who have done worse than want to talk. Yes, we prefer to sit with our own kind when we can; it feels safer.” Why was his noticing he was being profiled and not understanding why he is personally being treated as a threat responded to with such derision?
I think the psychology behind that response informs some on other discussions you and I have had.
[quote=“Manda_JO, post:65, topic:683195”]
… If I were alone on a bus and a man chose to sit next to me when there was a whole bus of empty double seats to sit in, I would absolutely interpret that as a come-on. …/QUOTE]I accept that you would. The op however was presenting a circumstance of two empty seats, one next to him, one next to an unsavory appearing female (yeah I know he poorly chose the word “slutty”). This is not an empty bus scenario. Would you really think that a male would see your sitting in the empty seat next to him rather than walking past him to sit in the empty seat next to the unsavory looking female, or your not standing clearly to avoid sitting next to him, as a come on?
The worst our op did was call it immature. He expressed no contempt for women who would not sit near him.
Talk about red herrings. Where the hell did he even imply harassing her? He was discussing a woman choosing to not sit near him, a neatly dressed young man, and preferring to sit near someone dressed in a manner that he saw as very inappropriate and without class (“slutty” his poorly chosen phrase). He was not justifiying or suggesting approaching either of them in any way. Just puzzled as to why he was considered a less preferred seat-mate than the so-attaired young woman.
Interesting though that you believe that how a woman chooses to look should in no way impact how a man behaves, but being male alone is enough to justify how you act to him.
Your profiling? Dandy. His profiling? How dare he!
I didn’t say it had no impact - I said how he acts is up to him. Certainly how a women looks is going to affect how a man behaves, but what that behavior is, is up to him. If there’s a “slutty” woman he can choose to look or not to look, choose to sit next to her or sit somewhere else, ignore her or be a jackass to her, insult her or speak to her as respectfully as if she was his mother. How he acts is up to him. That’s not saying her behavior has no impact. It does short-circuit the excuses of “she made me do it” or “women dressed like that deserve X”. Unless the woman in question used physical force, threatened someone with a weapon, or engaged in blackmail of some sort no, she didn’t “make” you do anything. And even if a person deserves X (in the unlikely event that is the case), you don’t have to be the one who delivers it, and you should ask yourself if you are the person who should be delivering it.
How other people look, act, and behave impacts us all of the time. What we do with that impact is what’s up to us.
Personally, I think “STRANGER DANGER!!” is a wrong message to send to kids. Because most strangers are not dangerous and inevitably, at least once in your life, you are going to need to rely on a stranger to get you out of a jam. Maybe not a climb-into-this-van-right-now-missy kind of jam, but nonetheless an urgent situation. Distrusting everyone equally is not very smart. If I had a kid, I would tell them that if they MUST ask for help from strangers, to pick out the person who looks like a Mommy or a Daddy (i.e., they have children with them). Or, if those aren’t available, look for the Granny in an applique sweater and cat jewelry.
Not all profiling is the same. I feel much more anxious when a big burly guy is walking behind me than a shrimpy guy with a limp. I don’t know what thinking about this too much is going to do for me, except for maybe cause me to not trust my gut when it is perfectly reasonable to do so.
The kind of profiling we’re talking about should not be compared with workplace discrimination or law enforcement racial profiling or any other type of profiling that actually harms people. How does it harm a guy if I choose to sit two seats down from him versus right next to him? Or if I choose to say “Mornin’” to him instead of, “It’s a lovely day, isn’t it!” Some profiling begs deep introspection and perhaps concomitant feelings of shame and guilt. Whereas other acts don’t deserve more than a shoulder shrug and a, “That’s just the way it is, yo.”
When I ride the bus, the only passengers that I steer clear from are those who look intoxicated and mentally unstable. But I do remember being a lot more discriminating when I was a younger monstro, and I have absolutely no regrets. I like to think it’s how I was able to walk through the streets of Newark for five years without coming to any harm.
Whether or not I sit next to someone is not only determined by gender. I might well decide to sit next to a man looking out the window while wearing headphones, or a man clearly working on a laptop, rather than some drunk woman. Gender is just one factor. I am also observing body language, whether or not the person is engrossed in some distracting task or activity, and various other factors. I’d rather sit next to a small/short person than a tall/large person just based on the space factor.
So, yes, I can imagine a situation where I choose to sit next to a smallish man engrossed in what’s happening on his iPad rather than some large woman who can’t STFU. Women can be Scary People, too, in which case I might prefer to sit next to a large guy if I perceive Scary Woman as more of a potential threat than the man.
Not all women are preferable to all men as seat companions.
He did not call the women who choose not to sit near him “slutty.” Those are the women whose behavior is under discussion. He also did not treat the woman dressed in the manner he described as “slutty” in any way at all other than notice that she was who the other woman chose to sit next to and use that word to create the visual image of how she appeared to us here.
I’ll give you a non-rapeified-every-man-is-a-dangerous-predator answer from a female who has lived in and around NYC her entire life.
From the time a female hits puberty, men pay attention to you. It’s not all negative, but it can be annoying. When you get on a bus, you can’t tell by looking at a man if they are going to try and pick you up, engage you in unwanted conversation and so forth just by looking at them. At that age, it’s much easier to sit next to another girl. It’s a quick judgment call, one of hundreds that people make every day, and it’s nothing personal against you.
Also, many people don’t pick up well on social signals about being left alone. Sometimes reading a book, kindle, paper, using your phone, etc isn’t enough to deter a male who has decided he wants to talk to you. Why put yourself in that situation if you can help it?
Not stranger danger. Respect and politeness to all and reasonable caution for all. Don’t judge based on superficial looks too much. That’s the message I want my daughter to hear. Given that she is judged for her looks, a Chinese girl adopted into a White Jewish family may have some issues with what people assume about her based on looks alone, I think it is the message I prefer to send than worrying about male or female.
Of course not all profiling is the same but the defensiveness that characterized the inquiry about why he was being profiled, the sort of response posters here gave, informs mightily on our past discussion and how people respond to any comment that implies they might be profiling, let alone that their prejudicial behaviors might be having an impact on others. If people cannot tolerate having their prejudical actions pointed out for something as minor as this without reacting so defensively then what hope do we have? If people cannot engage in a non-snarky discussion acknowledging that they are profiling and why, and at least appreciate that while they may feel such profiling is justified for the sake of their comfort and perceived safety, it does impact others in some ways, if only sending a message to an insecure young man that he must be something to be feared, then how can we hope to have those more difficult ones? To me the everyday mild profiling, the profiling we are not even conscious of, is potentially the most harmful, certainly the most insidious.
Really the fact that the stakes are so low on each side in this case makes the reaction I read more notable. No brainer that the op was correct and that he is being profiled. And he was experiencing some negative impact from that if only a mild perceived insult. Given that the cost to him is slight (and frankly something I’d experience as a benefit, an empty seat next to me) and the perception of less risk of being approached, talked to, groped, or followed off the bus by someone who having sat next to you now feels that a sexual relationship is implied, is meaningful to some, well, fine. I can understand that really I can. I would choose to sit near the person I feel would be the most likely to leave me to my space too.
As to his word choice. Yeah it is politically incorrect and makes him read badly. He clearly does not articulate his POV well. That said it was a word choice that painted the image of the woman in question … we can visualize what the person looked like from that word while “unsavory” would not have painted as accurate of an image. His point was still made: women in his experience would prefer to sit next to someone who is dressed with her breasts falling out of her top and a tattoo on her upper back saying “My name is Candy” upside down (no judgement passed, but he could have just described her and that could have been what she looked like), than sit next to him, a well dressed young man just sitting there. He does not get why, is mildly offended, and more so puzzled.