# Question about the end of the movie "Avatar" (spoilers obviously) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346 "2010-01-01T23:51:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/41 "2010-01-02T22:17:19Z")
There’s another issue that the movie completely ignored, and that’s the idea of synthesizing unobtanium on earth. Which must logically be possible, even if the movie assumes it’s only found on Pandora. The fundamental elements on Pandora are the same as those on Earth. We know enough about physics and cosmology to know that the elemental composition of Pandora must be similar to that of Earth, and that any elements that don’t naturally occur on Earth are going to be similarly rare on Pandora. Elements not found naturally tend to be very radioactive and not exist for long. For Unobtanium to be a stable substance with low enough radioactivity to safely have a chunk of it sitting on a desk, it must be made out of elements that we have here on Earth. Unobtanium is a high-temperature superconductor, a material used in manufacture rather than a consumable energy source. It is treated as a bulk material which can presumably be drawn or cast into wires and other forms as needed, which implies that it does not have an excessively complex microscopic structure. Unlike a complex organic material like wood or feathers, Unobtanium is valuable for its basic chemical composition rather than any macroscopic features. It should be possible therefore to develop a chemical process to mass-produce Unobtanium on Earth. It’s odd that this hasn’t been done yet despite the tremendous financial incentive to do so. It can’t be because the composition is unknown. Given a reasonable sample of the material, we have the tools today to tell you the exact elemental breakdown and chemical structure of any arbitrary material. Obviously it must consist of elements joined together in a way that is very difficult to reproduce, but it can’t be impossibly difficult if so much of it has come into existence on Pandora already. I would be very surprised if there were not multiple independent research teams on Earth working on cracking the secret of synthesizing Unobtanium. The expensive failure of the mining effort is only going to put more emphasis on developing a domestic source. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/42 "2010-01-02T22:20:51Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > There’s no way the sequels are going to show anything except the Navi and the “superior” shamanistic, Planet-Mother based culture soundly defeating the humans and their incredible array of science fiction super-weapons and technology. > > Which is sad, because in real life whenever Native forces defeated Europeans, the Europeans came back later with Maxim Guns and Gunboats and it never turned out well for the Natives… > > As to “Why bother?” > > Apparently it’s implied that the mineral on Pandora is kinda important (or necessary for) space travel. If the planet is in as bad shape as Jake says it is, then I can see it being worth someone’s while to come back and permanently deal with the locals if it means access to spaceship fuel. Well something that people almost always dismiss when they blow of the ‘noble savage’ archetype is that Anglos are the ultimate ‘Noble Savage’ culture. Constantly under the rule of continental hegemons, anglo culture grew up under the yoke for most of its history. Then eventually it became the culture that dominated the entire globe for several centuries. As Pandora isn’t less intelligent or scientificially competent than humanity, it’s a pretty even fight, and they have deep counter-intel on the humans. Now, if Cameron doesn’t show Eywa building organic railguns to defend Pandora in the sequel, then it’s gonna be stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/43 "2010-01-02T22:22:26Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > There’s another issue that the movie completely ignored, and that’s the idea of synthesizing unobtanium on earth. Which must logically be possible, even if the movie assumes it’s only found on Pandora. > > The fundamental elements on Pandora are the same as those on Earth. We know enough about physics and cosmology to know that the elemental composition of Pandora must be similar to that of Earth, and that any elements that don’t naturally occur on Earth are going to be similarly rare on Pandora. Elements not found naturally tend to be very radioactive and not exist for long. For Unobtanium to be a stable substance with low enough radioactivity to safely have a chunk of it sitting on a desk, it must be made out of elements that we have here on Earth. > > Unobtanium is a high-temperature superconductor, a material used in manufacture rather than a consumable energy source. It is treated as a bulk material which can presumably be drawn or cast into wires and other forms as needed, which implies that it does not have an excessively complex microscopic structure. Unlike a complex organic material like wood or feathers, Unobtanium is valuable for its basic chemical composition rather than any macroscopic features. It should be possible therefore to develop a chemical process to mass-produce Unobtanium on Earth. > > It’s odd that this hasn’t been done yet despite the tremendous financial incentive to do so. It can’t be because the composition is unknown. Given a reasonable sample of the material, we have the tools today to tell you the exact elemental breakdown and chemical structure of any arbitrary material. Obviously it must consist of elements joined together in a way that is very difficult to reproduce, but it can’t be impossibly difficult if so much of it has come into existence on Pandora already. > > I would be very surprised if there were not multiple independent research teams on Earth working on cracking the secret of synthesizing Unobtanium. The expensive failure of the mining effort is only going to put more emphasis on developing a domestic source. You can’t synthesize an element. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/44 "2010-01-02T22:26:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You can’t synthesize an element. Sure you can. It’s just really, really expensive and energy-consuming to do it in any large quantity. But that’s irrelevent, because unobtanium isn’t an element. We already know about all the non-radioactive, naturally occurring elements, and since Unobtanium is sufficiently non-radioactive to safely have a chunk on a desk near people, and has a half-life long enough to be useful, it’s not one of those unknown heavy elements off the bottom of the periodic table. Unobtanium has to be a compound of already known elements. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/45 "2010-01-02T22:55:22Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > Sure you can. It’s just really, really expensive and energy-consuming to do it in any large quantity. > > But that’s irrelevent, because unobtanium isn’t an element. We already know about all the non-radioactive, naturally occurring elements, and since Unobtanium is sufficiently non-radioactive to safely have a chunk on a desk near people, and has a half-life long enough to be useful, it’s not one of those unknown heavy elements off the bottom of the periodic table. Unobtanium has to be a compound of already known elements. Or it has to be that some people are putting WAY TOO MUCH THOUGHT into it, it was called Unobtainium for a very good reason. Far from being a poor choice, it was a great choice. It said, “We aren’t going the way of Star Trek with hokey explanations, we’re going with Star Wars and not trying to explain it in depth.” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/46 "2010-01-02T22:59:17Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > Sure you can. It’s just really, really expensive and energy-consuming to do it in any large quantity. > > But that’s irrelevent, because unobtanium isn’t an element. We already know about all the non-radioactive, naturally occurring elements, and since Unobtanium is sufficiently non-radioactive to safely have a chunk on a desk near people, and has a half-life long enough to be useful, it’s not one of those unknown heavy elements off the bottom of the periodic table. Unobtanium has to be a compound of already known elements. The wiki says that: > [@](#): > > Researchers theorize that billions of years ago, when the planets and satellites of the Alpha Centauri system were condensing from the primordial stellar nebula, A Mars-sized planetesimal may have crashed into the still molten Pandora. The moon’s nickel-iron core was disrupted. The high temperatures and pressures produced in the collision far exceeded anything wrought by human technology. These forces interacted with Polyphemus’s intense magnetic field and created conditions suitable for the production of Unobtanium. So making it isn’t a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/47 "2010-01-02T23:07:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > 1. The humans ARE NOT more technologically advanced than the Pandorans. Yes they are. I didn’t see Pandorans with Power Armour or Helicopters or Advanced Medicine or Firearms or Space Travel any of the other technologically advanced stuff the humans had. The Pandorans had bows and arrows, spears, bone daggers, and rode/flew the local wildlife. Technology wise that’s… about Turn 11 of _Civilisation IV_. > [@](#): > > 1. There is no reason to believe that Eywa cannot manufacture organic technology that can shoot down things in orbit. Organic railguns anyone? Without Organic Radar to see interplanetary missiles or asteroids coming it’s not going to do much good. And even though Eywa has absorbed a Scientist, my experience with Scientists & Academics are that they’re absolutely brilliant at the field they work in, but not as clued up on other areas. For example, a Doctor of English Literature might be the world authority on Shakespeare but have no idea how their car engine works beyond “Something about sparks and petrol combusting”. So Eywa might have access to Grace’s knowledge, but I bet she doesn’t actually know how to make a Heat-Seeking Missile or a Helicopter or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/48 "2010-01-02T23:07:59Z")
I thought the “-ium” suffix applied only to elements, but I’m ready to be corrected. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/49 "2010-01-03T00:08:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I thought the “-ium” suffix applied only to elements, but I’m ready to be corrected. Behold, [osmiridium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmiridium)! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/50 "2010-01-03T02:13:07Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Yes they are. I didn’t see Pandorans with Power Armour or Helicopters or Advanced Medicine or Firearms or Space Travel any of the other technologically advanced stuff the humans had. The Pandorans had bows and arrows, spears, bone daggers, and rode/flew the local wildlife. Technology wise that’s… about Turn 11 of _Civilisation IV_. And I didn’t see the humans jacking directly into the neurological matrix of the entire planet. The Na’vi had bows and arrows. The Na’vi are not the apex sapience on Pandora. > [@](#): > > Without Organic Radar to see interplanetary missiles or asteroids coming it’s not going to do much good. And even though Eywa has absorbed a Scientist, my experience with Scientists & Academics are that they’re absolutely brilliant at the field they work in, but not as clued up on other areas. For example, a Doctor of English Literature might be the world authority on Shakespeare but have no idea how their car engine works beyond “Something about sparks and petrol combusting”. So Eywa might have access to Grace’s knowledge, but I bet she doesn’t actually know how to make a Heat-Seeking Missile or a Helicopter or anything like that. How do you know Eywa doesn’t have some kind of ability to see beyond the planet? She might not know how to make a helicopter but they could certainly reverse engineer the helicopters that were left on Pandora. Eywa probably already has a very advanced knowledge of chemistry and physics. So understanding that she can launch metallic projectiles magnetically is likely not something she needs to be taught. She has both created, and manages the flora and fauna on the planet. She has an intimate knowledge of the inner-workings of the entire biology of her own eco-system as demonstrated in the film. I think a helicopter is pretty simple next to a Thanator or a Na’vi. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/51 "2010-01-03T02:42:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How do you know Eywa doesn’t have some kind of ability to see beyond the planet? > > She might not know how to make a helicopter but they could certainly reverse engineer the helicopters that were left on Pandora. Eywa probably already has a very advanced knowledge of chemistry and physics. So understanding that she can launch metallic projectiles magnetically is likely not something she needs to be taught. She has both created, and manages the flora and fauna on the planet. She has an intimate knowledge of the inner-workings of the entire biology of her own eco-system as demonstrated in the film. > > I think a helicopter is pretty simple next to a Thanator or a Na’vi. She doesn’t need to make a helicopter. She already has organic flying machines that can pull helicopters out of the sky, are more maneuverable, and are a lot cheaper to construct. And those were the small ones. A flock of the big red birds could take out even large aircraft, and the humans are still going to be limited in what they can bring. No one has mentioned that Sully knows insurgency tactics very well, and the Na’vi, who can live off the land, are not going to be hanging around in one big bunch to get nuked. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/52 "2010-01-03T02:44:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > She doesn’t need to make a helicopter. She already has organic flying machines that can pull helicopters out of the sky, are more maneuverable, and are a lot cheaper to construct. And those were the small ones. A flock of the big red birds could take out even large aircraft, and the humans are still going to be limited in what they can bring. > > No one has mentioned that Sully knows insurgency tactics very well, and the Na’vi, who can live off the land, are not going to be hanging around in one big bunch to get nuked. Of course she doesn’t need to make a helicopter, just saying she could if she wanted to. But all they need to do is nuke the different soul-tree sites. At the same time though, I think Eywa probably has the ability to perceive outer space and think it would be possible for her to send death back to Earth too. Eywa resembles greatly the Singulitarian intelligence as described by Ray Kurzweil, WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more intelligent than humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/53 "2010-01-03T03:34:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I thought the “-ium” suffix applied only to elements, but I’m ready to be corrected. Maybe it’s a trade name, and the real name is something like ‘vanadiun calcium tellurium (IV) duodecaphosate’. > [@mswas](#): > > And I didn’t see the humans jacking directly into the neurological matrix of the entire planet. Actually, they did at the beginning of the movie (on the expedition where Sully disturbs the hammerhead rhino), but they didn’t yet know what they were looking at. They just saw connections, not what was running on them. Given time, they would have made the link. > [@mswas](#): > > The Na’vi had bows and arrows. The Na’vi are not the apex sapience on Pandora… > > How do you know Eywa doesn’t have some kind of ability to see beyond the planet? > > She might not know how to make a helicopter but they could certainly reverse engineer the helicopters that were left on Pandora. Eywa probably already has a very advanced knowledge of chemistry and physics. So understanding that she can launch metallic projectiles magnetically is likely not something she needs to be taught. She has both created, and manages the flora and fauna on the planet. She has an intimate knowledge of the inner-workings of the entire biology of her own eco-system as demonstrated in the film. > > I think a helicopter is pretty simple next to a Thanator or a Na’vi. And since the humans arrived, Eywa has learned what metallic technology can do in a more than theoretical way. She has felt it in her own body. I say she’ll raid the library on the base and then start thinking orbitally about Distant Early Warning systems. Could Eywa look collectively out of the eyes of a few dozen creatures scattered across a continent, and _synthesize_ a large-scale telescopic view? We have no information about what orbital stations might be around Pandora; the shuttles were shown docking directly on the starship. But there’s got to be a refueling base or something in orbit. Another thing someone raised: why aren’t the Na’vi six-limbed and four-eyed like the other large creatures? How is it that they’re similar enough to humans to a) look attractive in a romantic sort of way, and b) have similar-enough DNA that avatars can be built that incorporate human DNA as well, and _still work_? I think the Na’vi were _designed_. Although, not necessarily by Eywa. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/54 "2010-01-03T04:23:36Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > why aren’t the Na’vi six-limbed and four-eyed like the other large creatures? Why don’t humans have 4 legs and tails? So many other creatures on their planet have those characteristics. Silly plot hole. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/55 "2010-01-03T04:39:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No one has mentioned that Sully knows insurgency tactics very well Hmm, judging from that suicidal charge of his “infantry” straight into the machine guns, I don’t think this is a given. Hell, that whole battle would have been lost without the Deus Ex twist. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/56 "2010-01-03T05:13:51Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Why don’t humans have 4 legs and tails? We have four limbs, and monkeys have tails. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/57 "2010-01-03T05:25:52Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Hmm, judging from that suicidal charge of his “infantry” straight into the machine guns, I don’t think this is a given. Hell, that whole battle would have been lost without the Deus Ex twist. I don’t think he had a lot of time to train his troops or convince them to use tactics which they were not used to, so I’d give him a pass on this one. Given twelve years or so, I think they’d make a much better army. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/58 "2010-01-03T05:29:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > At the same time though, I think Eywa probably has the ability to perceive outer space and think it would be possible for her to send death back to Earth too. Eywa resembles greatly the Singulitarian intelligence as described by Ray Kurzweil, WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more intelligent than humanity. Absolutely. It would be interesting if someone invented a two pronged animal, which allow more than one on one connections to be made. I’m not sure how active a mind Eywa is (active enough to send the beasts, obviously), but the entire population jacked together could do some real damage. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/59 "2010-01-03T05:47:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Absolutely. It would be interesting if someone invented a two pronged animal, Did the flyers and horse like creatures not have two nerve ending thingies? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346/60 "2010-01-03T06:11:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t think he had a lot of time to train his troops or convince them to use tactics which they were not used to, so I’d give him a pass on this one. Given twelve years or so, I think they’d make a much better army. OK, fine, but as someone pointed out, the Ewoks did better. Shouldn’t that frontal assault have been a feint to lead the Space Marines into a trap of some sort, Custer-style? As it was, the Na’vi got decimated, to no strategic or plot purpose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-end-of-the-movie-avatar-spoilers-obviously/523346.md?page=4)