# Question about The Hobbit (or dragons in general) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267 "2013-10-15T01:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/41 "2013-10-15T20:40:28Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Mating ritual. It’s a good thing that Smaug didn’t catch Bilbo fingering his golden cup! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/42 "2013-10-15T21:00:43Z")
Folks, it’s the _human_ mating ritual that accumulates obscene amounts of wealth. For all we know, dragons are asexual. Tolkien refers to all the known dragons as males, IIRC. Either that, or Smaug is waiting for his mating ritual to pay off and attract a dragoness. (Unfortunately, this may be the same mating ritual as dwarves employ… and we’re not so clear on how good they are at distinguishing secondary sexual characteristics, either.) (Poor guy is there lounging on his bed with mood lighting waiting for some boom-chikka-wa-wa, and suddenly its all dwarves! in his crib. It’s like bringing home flowers and getting a faceful of bees instead of some nookie.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/43 "2013-10-15T23:13:18Z")
I just want to point out that those winged beasts we saw in the Lord Of The Rings trilogy were not dragons. IIRC they were dinosaurs. Sauron sees them in their natural state and detects evil in a few. Those few he feeds a special magical, evil diet. This makes them bigger, stronger, meaner, and allows them to survive the ages. IIRC (and I may not) Smaug is the last dragon. Oh, and the spiders that Radgast saw in the first Hobbit film are the children of Shelob, who we met in ROTK. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/44 "2013-10-15T23:29:48Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > … the children of Shelob… …therefore providing proof that no matter how butt-ugly you are, and what a terrible person you are, someone, somewhere, will have sex with you. I bet she ate the poor bastard afterwards too. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/45 "2013-10-16T00:10:37Z")
I recall a short story in the Sword and Sorceress anthologies where an adventurer in a large library reads a book on dragons where it mentioned that dragons liked hoarding things, but exactly _what_ they hoarded is different from dragon to dragon. Many like gold, but other dragons hoard different things. He stole the book to consult later - and was ambushed and devoured in the night by the librarian. Turns out dragons can shapeshift too… > [@WhyNot](#): > > I’ve only seen one explanation other than, “ooh, shiny!” One author created dragons who needed to consume gold in order to breathe fire. Of course, I can’t recall who the author was or what the book was, so it’s not terribly useful. I recall in _Wu-Ling’s Folly,_ one of Alan Dean Foster’s Mad Amos stories the dragon in question wanted gold just to eat it. > [@Lightray](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Why do humans do the same? Why accumulate such vast wealth and displays of wealth that it’s obscene? > > Mating ritual. That reminds me of dragons in Mercedes Lackey’s Five Hundred Kingdoms series; having a large hoard is mentioned as being attractive to other dragons. Also, they do it because according to stories dragons have hoards, and there’s a compulsive effect to stories in that universe. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/46 "2013-10-16T00:18:42Z")
Why does a dragon hoard gold? Because he’s a dragon. It’s his nature. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/47 "2013-10-16T00:23:39Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Oh, and the spiders that Radgast saw in the first Hobbit film are the children of Shelob, who we met in ROTK. I’m not sure if they’re children of Shelob, although they’re definitely other descendants of Ungoliant. So, more like Shelob’s cousins. JRRT mentions them somewhere in the Letters, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/48 "2013-10-16T00:51:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I recall a short story in the Sword and Sorceress anthologies where an adventurer in a large library reads a book on dragons where it mentioned that dragons liked hoarding things, but exactly _what_ they hoarded is different from dragon to dragon. Many like gold, but other dragons hoard different things. He stole the book to consult later - and was ambushed and devoured in the night by the librarian. Turns out dragons can shapeshift too… In one of my game settings, the dragons are effectively immortal remnants of a fallen civilization; everyone they knew and cared about is long since dust. Their hoards are mementos, reminders of the people and places they once knew, collected and protected as a bulwark against the relentless years. A dragon may well value a crude clay amulet above a jeweled scepter, because the amulet was made by a child the dragon loved, once upon a time. One of the dragons has made it her work to collect and preserve every scrap of writing that survived the fall of her people. A few scholars have persuaded her to read selected tomes to them, but _no one_ is allowed to touch the books. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/49 "2013-10-16T02:35:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I recall a short story in the Sword and Sorceress anthologies where an adventurer in a large library reads a book on dragons where it mentioned that dragons liked hoarding things, but exactly _what_ they hoarded is different from dragon to dragon. Many like gold, but other dragons hoard different things. He stole the book to consult later - and was ambushed and devoured in the night by the librarian. Turns out dragons can shapeshift too… So some dragons hoard old books and magazines like an episode of Hoarders? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/50 "2013-10-16T02:40:16Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I’m not sure if they’re children of Shelob, although they’re definitely other descendants of Ungoliant. So, more like Shelob’s cousins. JRRT mentions them somewhere in the Letters, IIRC. They’re also in the Silmarillion in the Nan Dungortheb found north of Doriath. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/51 "2013-10-16T04:32:52Z")
The trouble with “Flight of Dragons” is there are some places that don’t have limestone, so a dragon has to eat a lot of humans and animals for the bones. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/52 "2013-10-16T04:41:04Z")
> [@vontsira](#): > > Well, Tolkien being a devout Catholic and thus loath to get into anything at all sexual – and tending to minimise involvement of female characters of any kind, in his works – who knows what might have been, but which he steered clear of? I haven’t read the book since high school, but doesn’t some dude accidentally fuck his own sister in The Silmarillion? ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/53 "2013-10-16T06:45:50Z")
> [@Airk](#): > > I’m a little confused why people are still wildly speculating/making stuff up when this question has been pretty much definitively answered by **Lightray** in the 5th post… Because not all dragons come from the same source. D&D dragons, St. George, Asian, etc. all display the treasure trope but not necessarily from the Tolkien mythology. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/54 "2013-10-16T07:47:58Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I haven’t read the book since high school, but doesn’t some dude accidentally fuck his own sister in The Silmarillion? Yes, but it takes Morgoth, the mightiest and most evil Earth-bound being of all, to engineer the whole thing. All the other baddies are limited to killing and torture. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/55 "2013-10-16T12:09:45Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Because not all dragons come from the same source. D&D dragons, St. George, Asian, etc. all display the treasure trope but not necessarily from the Tolkien mythology. I don’t recall St. George’s dragon hoarding anything; it was rampaging across the countryside, but not brooding on a horde like, say, Beowulf’s dragon. I’m mostly familiar with the dragon myths of Japan and China, but they too don’t tend to be hoarders of wealth – they have treasures, to be sure, and maybe palaces and such, but they’re more spirits or deities in charge of various natural phenomena than they are menaces sitting on a pile of gold. D&D dragons, of course, draw heavily from Tolkien. And also from Tolkien’s inspirations (e.g., Sigurd, Beowulf). Russian and Slavic “dragons”, AFAIK, don’t hoarde treasure in the same way, either. “Dragon sitting on a pile of gold” tends to derive squarely from the same Norse/Germanic legends that Tolkien sourced from, and from whence popular culture has also drawn. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/56 "2013-10-16T12:35:25Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I haven’t read the book since high school, but doesn’t some dude accidentally fuck his own sister in The Silmarillion? Yeah, Turin, the original emo-kid. But that was actually BECAUSE of a dragon. Turin hadn’t seen his sister since she was a little girl, and he’d been gone a long time. When she grew up, she went looking for hiim but found Glaurung, who erased her memory. When Turin found her, he didn’t recognize her as an adult, and she didn’t remember him, so they fell in love. Eventually, Glaurung removed his memory block, she realized that she’d had sex with her brother, and she threw herself and their unborn child off a cliff. This was, as **the\_diego** noted, entirely due to Morgoth’s desire for hurting Turin’s father (whom Morgoth had chained up outside his fortress so he could watch all of this happening) as much as humanly (well, Ainurly) possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/57 "2013-10-16T12:38:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So some dragons hoard old books and magazines like an episode of Hoarders? Mainly Dragon Magazines. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/58 "2013-10-16T12:46:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Mainly Dragon Magazines. Also [other magazines](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) (depending on age category). ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/59 "2013-10-16T13:37:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yeah, Turin, the original emo-kid. But that was actually BECAUSE of a dragon. Turin hadn’t seen his sister since she was a little girl, and he’d been gone a long time. When she grew up, she went looking for hiim but found Glaurung, who erased her memory. When Turin found her, he didn’t recognize her as an adult, and she didn’t remember him, so they fell in love. Eventually, Glaurung removed his memory block, she realized that she’d had sex with her brother, and she threw herself and their unborn child off a cliff. She wasn’t a little kid- she wasn’t even born when he left. You’re probably getting Nienor mixed up with her older sister, who died young. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/60 "2013-10-16T14:07:21Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Mainly Dragon Magazines. Magazines about dragons or regular magazines like Time or Newsweek giant-sized for dragons?😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267.md?page=4)