# Question about The Hobbit (or dragons in general) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267 "2013-10-15T01:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/61 "2013-10-16T14:17:51Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > She wasn’t a little kid- she wasn’t even born when he left. You’re probably getting Nienor mixed up with her older sister, who died young. You’re right, I was. > [@msmith537](#): > > Magazines about dragons or regular magazines like Time or Newsweek giant-sized for dragons?😕 [Dragon Magazine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(magazine)) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/62 "2013-10-16T14:20:44Z")
Dragon Magazine is a D&D mag. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/63 "2013-10-16T14:24:13Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I don’t recall St. George’s dragon hoarding anything; it was rampaging across the countryside, but not brooding on a horde like, say, Beowulf’s dragon. IIRC, the dragon in _Beowulf_ was especially pissed about the stolen gold cup because it was his favorite cup for **drinking** from. Which makes for an odd mental picture. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/64 "2013-10-16T14:53:09Z")
I’m not sure that dragons in sagas like Beowulf are supposed to bear much physical resemblance to the popular image of dragons nowadays – size, in particular. Beowulf’s dragon was probably no bigger than a giant or troll, and _they_ certainly would be imagined as drinking mead or whatever. Dragons probably fell into the same category of “big enemy things that otherwise act a lot like we do”. Also, Beowulf’s dragon may draw from the same Norse/Germanic tradition of not having originated as a dragon, but having been a person (or similar) who turned into a dragon to protect his horde. Where, again, one could imagine he’d’ve had a favorite gold cup. Although I don’t really recall much background detail on the dragon in Beowulf; lots on Grendl and Grendl’s mom, then “oh yeah, and a dragon too.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/65 "2013-10-16T15:01:23Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Although I don’t really recall much background detail on the dragon in Beowulf; lots on Grendl and Grendl’s mom, then “oh yeah, and a dragon too.” Which is kind of ironic, since it’s the dragon that kills old Wulfy. You’d think that would merit more character development… ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/66 "2013-10-16T18:15:44Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > C.S. Lewis played with the same trope – the dead dragon the Dawn Treader encounters on one of the isles was a lord who turned into a dragon because he was brooding over the gold horde he coveted. Eustace suffers the same fate by taking part of the horde. The dead dragon may have been Lord Octesian, but it’s not certain. Eustace turns into a dragon not just by taking some of the treasure but by sleeping on a _dragon_’s hoard with greedy, dragonish thoughts in his heart. So if the same thing happened to Lord Octesian, there’s a definite suggestion that there must have been a dragon there before who previously owned the hoard, who may himself have been… and so it’s dragons all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/67 "2013-10-16T19:26:10Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > In Tolkien’s Legendarium, dragons like Smaug covet gold and wealth because they were creations of Morgoth, whose nature was greed. The evil spirit within Glaurung the forefather of dragons displays its evil by such covetousness – just as coveting the One Ring displays it’s (and Sauron’s) evil nature. I’d say it’s not just greed or covetousness, but also about power and domination (also prime characteristics of Morgoth et al.). By claiming and controlling things that everyone else wants, and successfully defending against all others, the dragon demonstrates its power. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/68 "2013-10-16T19:59:48Z")
I think my puppy has dragon blood. We keep his toys in a peach crate. One by one he pulls most of his toys out of the box and drops them wherever he’s decided to camp out (especially on our bed.) Eventually he’s lying amid a nice little pile of chewy ropes and bouncy balls. At night we pick the toys up and put them back in the crate, like Sisyphus. He’s so reluctant to leave the toys behind, that he taught himself to carry three at a time. He spent countless hours developing the techniques. He’d start to move to a new location, pick up one toy and take a few steps, then look back and frown at the toys left behind. Drop the one, go back, pick up one, take a few steps, drop … try to pick up both … over and over. It’s fun to watch. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/69 "2013-10-16T20:26:38Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I don’t recall any eats-gold-to-breathe-fire dragons… given the limited amount of gold on Earth, that seems like a quickly self-limiting problem. In PJ’s Hobbit case, that’s apparently not an issue, since the gold hoard shown in the film has to be at least 90% as large as all the gold ever mined. Apparently there’s a lot more in Middle Earth than current Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/70 "2013-10-16T22:48:23Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Apparently there’s a lot more in Middle Earth than current Earth. Well, of course. The dragons ate it all, so there’s not much left. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/71 "2013-10-17T01:57:11Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I’m not sure that dragons in sagas like Beowulf are supposed to bear much physical resemblance to the popular image of dragons nowadays – size, in particular. Beowulf’s dragon was probably no bigger than a giant or troll, and _they_ certainly would be imagined as drinking mead or whatever. Dragons probably fell into the same category of “big enemy things that otherwise act a lot like we do”. When St. George or St. Michael is portrayed slaying a dragon, it’s usually no bigger than a crocodile. But maybe that’s just because of the limited space in a stained-glass window or a corner of an illuminated manuscript. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/72 "2013-10-17T01:58:27Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Perhaps you’re misremembering Barbara Hambly’s _Dragonsbane_ series, wherein dragons horde gold because they need it for their magical/spiritual advancement? > > I don’t recall any eats-gold-to-breathe-fire dragons… given the limited amount of gold on Earth, that seems like a quickly self-limiting problem. Unless dragons have some sort of technology to reclaim gold from seawater, I suppose. At least it makes more sense than the _Reign of Fire_ dragons living on ashes. **Nothing** lives on ashes. That’s like stuffing your fireplace with ashes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/73 "2013-10-17T02:03:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At least it makes more sense than the _Reign of Fire_ dragons living on ashes. **Nothing** lives on ashes. That’s like stuffing your fireplace with ashes. Maybe their digestive system is full of [chlorine trifluoride](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php). 😃 > [@](#): > > The compound also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/74 "2013-10-17T02:50:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Maybe their digestive system is full of [chlorine trifluoride](http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time.php). 😃 That only works if they use chlorine trifluoride for burning their food at a **cellular** level, which no known life-form does, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/75 "2013-10-18T00:52:15Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I haven’t read the book since high school, but doesn’t some dude accidentally fuck his own sister in The Silmarillion? “I swear doc, it wasn’t on purpose, I was just walking around naked and just fell in there!”:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/76 "2013-10-18T18:31:10Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > I haven’t read the book since high school, but doesn’t some dude accidentally fuck his own sister in The Silmarillion? Yep, that’s Turin, who meets his sister Nienor who has had her memory wiped by Glaurung the dragon (so we get back to dragons again) and as for him, he hasn’t seen her since she was a small child and doesn’t recognise her. He names her “Niniel” (“Tear-maiden”) and over time they fall in love and marry. After she conceives, but before she gives birth, Turin slays Glaurung but is kayoed, and when Niniel arrives, Glaurung restores her memories before dying and calls Turin a number of unkind names, ending “but the worst of his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself”. Nienor, realizing what has happened, flings herself off a precipice, while Turin, when he recovers consciousness, throws himself on his sword. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/77 "2013-10-18T19:01:15Z")
Then both parents show up, the mother dies and the father grief stricken wanders away to die. It’s the feel good story of the 1st Age. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/78 "2013-10-18T19:30:51Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > In PJ’s Hobbit case, that’s apparently not an issue, since the gold hoard shown in the film has to be at least 90% as large as all the gold ever mined. Apparently there’s a lot more in Middle Earth than current Earth. Apparently all the gold ever mined would fit into a cube about 80 feet on a side. Smaug’s pool seemed a lot larger than that. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/79 "2013-10-18T20:06:18Z")
All the gold ever mined by HUMANS. The Dwarves were a little bit OCD for the shiny. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/80 "2013-10-19T03:23:38Z")
Or as Pratchett puts it, they don’t actually love gold; that’s just what they say to get it into bed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267.md?page=5)