# Question about The Hobbit (or dragons in general) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267 "2013-10-15T01:22:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/81 "2013-10-19T05:33:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Apparently all the gold ever mined would fit into a cube about 80 feet on a side. Smaug’s pool seemed a lot larger than that. About 25 years ago, my (awesome) Diff Eq TA had us calculate the volume that all of the humans on earth would fill, if you pureed them into a cube 100 yds square. IIRC, it was about one-third full. This was also the TA who had us calculate the proof of why, when flying, you want to be wearing a _unbuttoned_ trenchcoat – in case you suddenly get sucked out of the airplane at cruising altitude, its drag coefficient could slow your fall to “barely survivable”, instead of “assured _splat_” Anyway. Back to the topic. Um… dragon reproduction – hemipenes? They _are_ reptiles of a sort, after all. damn Tolkien, leaving out all the important details. Balrog wings. Dragon reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/82 "2013-10-19T07:24:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Then both parents show up, the mother dies and the father grief stricken wanders away to die. > > It’s the feel good story of the 1st Age. Yes - a sad end for the mighty man who, among other things, killed seventy of the enemy single-handed while covering his allies’ getaway at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. And a lot of those seventy were trolls, at that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/83 "2013-10-19T17:25:30Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Um… dragon reproduction – hemipenes? Lizards and snakes have hemipenes. My vote for the [most frightening reptile penis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-baA_ewWg) goes to the tortoise. (NSFW if you work in an office filled with turtles.) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/84 "2013-10-19T18:13:58Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > This was also the TA who had us calculate the proof of why, when flying, you want to be wearing a _unbuttoned_ trenchcoat Pro traveler tip: This shouldn’t be _all_ you wear. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/85 "2013-10-19T19:40:02Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Lizards and snakes have hemipenes. My vote for the [most frightening reptile penis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-baA_ewWg) goes to the tortoise. (NSFW if you work in an office filled with turtles.) I’m sorry, I have to disagree. The echidna has a positively Lovecraftian organ. The tortoise is kind of grotesque, but the echidna is just scary. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/86 "2013-10-19T19:48:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m sorry, I have to disagree. The echidna has a positively Lovecraftian organ. The tortoise is kind of grotesque, but the echidna is just scary. Unless there’s been a massive taxonomical revolution, the echidna is not a reptile. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/87 "2013-10-19T20:17:40Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Unless there’s been a massive taxonomical revolution, the echidna is not a reptile. :smack: You miss ONE WORD… ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/88 "2013-10-19T20:32:03Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > About 25 years ago, my (awesome) Diff Eq TA had us calculate the volume that all of the humans on earth would fill, if you pureed them into a cube 100 yds square. Pro Traveller Tip #2: Don’t do this, either. I’m also pretty sure it’s wrong. I found a couple of sites citing human volume at about 0.07 cubic meters, and assuming 1 meter = 1 yard, that’s only about 14 million humans to fill the cube, way short of the 7 billion alive today. Unless you’re assuming a lot were eaten by dragons first. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/89 "2013-10-19T20:40:06Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > :smack: > > You miss ONE WORD… I did carefully qualify my remarks. The [echidna penis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3o2Q-YLPw) definitely looks like something out of _Alien_. (Possibly SFW, since everyone will think that’s some kind of weird parasite instead of a penis.) Dragons could be related to dinosaurs and hence to birds. The [scariest bird penis belongs to the Argentine Lake Duck](http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/lake-duck.jpg). Scaling that up to dragon size would be…very disquieting. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/90 "2013-10-19T21:02:44Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > However, Tolkien was harkening back to legends such as Sigurd. In those myths, the cause and effect are somewhat reverse – dragons become dragons _because they covet gold_. Fafnir and then Andvari become dragons to protect their gold. And dragon gold carries their curse – Andvarinaut (the ring that inspired, in part, the One Ring) doomed its owners by their greed for it. > > C.S. Lewis played with the same trope – the dead dragon the Dawn Treader encounters on one of the isles was a lord who turned into a dragon because he was brooding over the gold horde he coveted. Eustace suffers the same fate by taking part of the horde. > > Tolkien kept the association of dragons with dragons’ gold, but dropped the cause of why there was a dragon with the gold in the first place, in favor of his own origin. Popular culture has done the rest. Zelazny is on-point in _Jack Of Shadows_, where two characters discuss how a gold-hoarding dragon was once a man until his greed transformed him into what he is now, with bonus points for explaining that he may yet master his passions and return to manhood (as has been managed before). ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/91 "2013-10-19T21:54:10Z")
If the police ever find reason to search my browser history I’m going to have a hard time explaining some things. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/92 "2013-10-19T22:03:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I did carefully qualify my remarks. The [echidna penis](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3o2Q-YLPw) definitely looks like something out of _Alien_. (Possibly SFW, since everyone will think that’s some kind of weird parasite instead of a penis.) > > Dragons could be related to dinosaurs and hence to birds. The [scariest bird penis belongs to the Argentine Lake Duck](http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/lake-duck.jpg). Scaling that up to dragon size would be…very disquieting. Expert speculation on the penis of an imaginary animal- that’s some Straight Dope! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/93 "2013-10-20T03:40:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **fachverwirrt** : > > Unless there’s been a massive taxonomical revolution, the echidna is not a reptile. There has been and it is. Well, sort of. Nowadays, taxonomy is all based on cladistics, and what’s usually called “reptiles” don’t form a clade. The smallest clade which includes all the reptiles is the amniotes, which also includes all mammals and birds. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/94 "2013-10-20T03:45:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There has been and it is. Well, sort of. Nowadays, taxonomy is all based on cladistics, and what’s usually called “reptiles” don’t form a clade. The smallest clade which includes all the reptiles is the amniotes, which also includes all mammals and birds. Don’t bring facts into this. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/95 "2013-10-22T14:13:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Apparently all the gold ever mined would fit into a cube about 80 feet on a side. Smaug’s pool seemed a lot larger than that. I wonder what effect releasing all of this treasure would have on the gold-based economy of Middle-Earth. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/96 "2013-10-22T15:00:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Bait. This is a cool idea. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/97 "2013-10-23T17:42:15Z")
The idea of monsters using a massive amount of gold and jewels just to attract wandering heroes is the basis for Lord Dunsany’s Horde Of The Gibbelins. It’s a great story. I should get around to reading more of his work one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/98 "2013-10-23T18:17:56Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > About 25 years ago, my (awesome) Diff Eq TA had us calculate the volume that all of the humans on earth would fill, if you pureed them into a cube 100 yds square. IIRC, it was about one-third full. > > This was also the TA who had us calculate the proof of why, when flying, you want to be wearing a _unbuttoned_ trenchcoat – in case you suddenly get sucked out of the airplane at cruising altitude, its drag coefficient could slow your fall to “barely survivable”, instead of “assured _splat_” > > Anyway. Back to the topic. Um… dragon reproduction – hemipenes? They _are_ reptiles of a sort, after all. damn Tolkien, leaving out all the important details. Balrog wings. Dragon reproduction. Either you learned DEq a long time ago, or you lost a decimal point somewhere. Assume humans are water, and weigh 60 kilograms on average. 7 billion humans gives 420 billion kilograms. 1000 kilograms/ cubic meter means 420 million cubic meters, or a cube about 750 meters on a side, much larger than a 100 yd cube. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/99 "2013-10-23T19:13:10Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Yes - a sad end for the mighty man who, among other things, killed seventy of the enemy single-handed while covering his allies’ getaway at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. And a lot of those seventy were trolls, at that. For an author that prided himself on structuring the Middle Earth legendarium after Nordic/Germanic cultural structures, Tokein wrote the _Narn i Chîn Húrin_ chock-full of Greek tragedy, including hubris and a great hero suffering a great fall. ---
**Author:** ![Neo-Calredic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/96bed5/32.png) [@Neo-Calredic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neo-Calredic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267/100 "2013-10-23T19:58:08Z")
My personal take on this is that because dragons are generally solitary creatures that also happen to be very long-lived, they instinctively hoard treasure as a means of granting a sense of objective meaning to their lives. The bigger their hoard, the greater their sense of personal accomplishment – “I managed to acquire THIS much treasure, and no one can take it from me!” I believe for an intelligent race that lives thousands of years (depending on the fictional universe), this makes sense as a kind of psychological anchor. While shorter-lived, more communal races find personal meaning in family, duty, philosophy, friendship, and the like, in the lifespan of a dragon all of those things are transient. Treasure lasts as long as one can hold on to it. This would also explain why dragons are willing to fight to the death to protect what is essentially just “stuff” – to them, their hoard isn’t just a big pile of goodies waiting to be spent, it’s literally a major part of their identity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-hobbit-or-dragons-in-general/671267.md?page=6)