# Question about the Nazgul **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 28, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564 "2004-06-28T16:09:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Basandre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Basandre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Basandre)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/1 "2004-06-28T16:09:24Z")
Does anyone know where the idea that the Nazgul were originally kings came from? I looked for it the The Lord of the Rings books, and found where Gandalf is telling Frodo about the other rings. It mentions that the elf rings and the dwarf rings went to rulers (lords, maybe) but the nine rings it says went to mortal men - nothing about kings. I know the movie version of Fellowship of the Ring has Aragorn telling the hobbits that the Nazgul were kings, but that conversation isn’t in the book. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/2 "2004-06-28T17:02:57Z")
At the very least it is in the Silmarillion. I am going to see if I can find it for you before **Qadgop** gets here. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/3 "2004-06-28T17:12:38Z")
While **flight** is doing his research, I’ll just throw in off the top of my head that Tolkien tells us virtually nothing about the histories of The Nine. One of them has a name (“Khamul, the Black Easterling”), and that’s it. The Lord of the Nazgul was also the Witch-King of Angmar, but he was a Nazgul first, then a king. What he did for a living before becoming a Nazgul is not mentioned. (Darn that Tolkien and his deliberate mysteriousness.) ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/4 "2004-06-28T17:18:40Z")
Oh man, that explanation sucks. It would have been so much cooler if the rings that went to men enslaved the men to Sauron’s will over time and turned them into unmortal abominations. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/5 "2004-06-28T17:30:45Z")
Much like the evolution of the Magi into “the Three Kings of Cologne” in Christian-related legend, the idea that the Nazgul were kings has something to support it but is embroidering on what Tolkien actually said. Remember that the One, the Seven, and the Nine were Rings of Power, which tapped into their wielders’ desire for power to dominate them and transform them into Sauron’s minions, held together solely by a lust for power and the effect of the Ring on them. It would be logical to presume that those with a lust for power, and therefore the proper people to gift with the Rings, are those who are seeking out power anyway – and hence kings of non-Numenorean men. It’s never made clear whether the Witch-King of Angmar was a Nazgul who became king, or a king who became a Nazgul. (And, contemplate the effects of the One Ring on Smeagol, the farthest thing from human royalty, to get an idea of what the effects of the Nine would be on humans already enamored of power. Or stay away from Tolkien and just look at Nixon and Watergate.) ---
**Author:** ![congodwarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@congodwarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/congodwarf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/6 "2004-06-28T17:31:26Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Oh man, that explanation sucks. It would have been so much cooler if the rings that went to men enslaved the men to Sauron’s will over time and turned them into unmortal abominations. It was my understanding that this is what happened. I’m by no means a Tolkein scholar but I have read the 3 LOTR books and the Hobbit and I always understood that 9 men were given the rings and the rings corrupted them into the Nazgul. I never knew they were kings until I saw the movie. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/7 "2004-06-28T17:31:32Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > What he did for a living before becoming a Nazgul is not mentioned. I believe he was a metal building salesman. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/8 "2004-06-28T17:46:57Z")
> [@flight](#): > > I am going to see if I can find it for you before **Qadgop** gets here. Sadly, I’ve just been informed that due to the local garbage service’s acquisition of a new, larger truck without the new, more competent drivers that were supposed to go with it, stately **Mercotan** manor will be without internet access or cable tv until tomorrow or so. So I’m afraid you’re all going to have to cope on your own. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/9 "2004-06-28T17:51:24Z")
Well, I can’t seem to find my copy of the Silmarillion, and I have gone through the LotR, so I am stuck. In fact, the only thing I found was confirmation that the Witch King of Angmar did indeed have the ring several thousand years before becoming king of Angmar, though he may have been king of something else first. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/10 "2004-06-28T18:01:08Z")
OK, a little online searching found one quote from the Silarillion that seems to suggest they were never kings before getting the rings, but several (another unconfirmed reference says three) became kings of the numenoreans before becoming wraiths. > [@](#): > > Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/11 "2004-06-28T18:50:42Z")
That makes it sound like they became kings and whatnot _after_ they got the rings, with their help. So the progression was something like: Bitter, grumpy burger-flipper -\> Free ring from Sauron, yay! -\> Powerful king or sorcerer -\> Extremely bitter, grumpy Nazgul ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/12 "2004-06-28T18:55:52Z")
> [@](#): > > It would be logical to presume that those with a lust for power, and therefore the proper people to gift with the Rings, are those who are seeking out power anyway – and hence kings of non-Numenorean men. It’s my impression that several of the Nazgul were, in fact, Numenoreans. And while there isn’t much evidence for the Nazgul being VIPs before their corruption, there’s even less evidence the other way, and it would make sense that they were. The Three were for “Elven-kings” (actually none of them kings, but close enough) and the Seven were for “Dwarf-lords” (some of which probably _were_ kings). And it would make sense, if you’re going to try to corrupt nine select men and turn them to your side, that you would choose men with some power and influence. Leverage your corruption, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/13 "2004-06-28T19:51:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe he was a metal building salesman. > 🙂 I hate to nitpick, but I do believe he was a metal _siding_ salesman. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/14 "2004-06-28T20:06:28Z")
What, no lawyer jokes? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/15 "2004-06-28T20:08:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > (And, contemplate the effects of the One Ring on Smeagol, the farthest thing from human royalty, to get an idea of what the effects of the Nine would be on humans already enamored of power. Or stay away from Tolkien and just look at Nixon and Watergate.) Or if you want to see what happens when you lose the power, look at Al Gore. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/16 "2004-06-28T20:17:37Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > Or if you want to see what happens when you lose the power, look at Al Gore. What, a really awful beard? Ohh, power is a cruel mistress… ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/17 "2004-06-28T20:33:06Z")
Of course, everyone knows that [Tom Bombadil and the Witch-King of Angmar are one and the same people](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/18 "2004-06-28T21:34:31Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > I hate to nitpick, but I do believe he was a metal _siding_ salesman. Ya know, it’s this kind of nit-picking pettifoggery that kills intelligent discussions. Do you want to start another “do balrogs have wings” war? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/19 "2004-06-29T02:50:32Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > I do believe he was a metal _siding_ salesman. No, no, Old Fellow, I was a System Admin for metal building salesmen. The guys who sell the storage buildings that are made by someone else and claim it as their own. The guys have a telephone, a PC and a magic ring. Lowest form of life on any earth. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Basandre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Basandre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Basandre)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564/20 "2004-06-29T03:03:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s my impression that several of the Nazgul were, in fact, Numenoreans. > > And while there isn’t much evidence for the Nazgul being VIPs before their corruption, there’s even less evidence the other way, and it would make sense that they were. The Three were for “Elven-kings” (actually none of them kings, but close enough) and the Seven were for “Dwarf-lords” (some of which probably _were_ kings). And it would make sense, if you’re going to try to corrupt nine select men and turn them to your side, that you would choose men with some power and influence. Leverage your corruption, you know. That was what I was thinking too, basically. There is no reason to give them to status-less men, and plenty of reasons to give them to men with status. But both the poem and the speech of Gandalf’s to Frodo mention dwarf lords, elven kings, and _mortal_ men. That’s all, just mortal. When I tried to find out more, I discovered how very little is known about the Nazgul. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/252564.md?page=2)