# Question about the Nazgul **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 12, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673 "2010-01-12T16:24:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/21 "2010-01-12T23:23:13Z")
It is explicitly stated that Sauron would rather torment his enemies than kill them quickly. If I may engage in some speculation, Sauron might also have wanted to interrogate Frodo to learn who his allies were, what they knew of the Ring, and how much of a threat they might pose to him. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/22 "2010-01-13T01:15:52Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > It is explicitly stated that Sauron would rather torment his enemies than kill them quickly. Anybody seen him and Skald together at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/23 "2010-01-13T01:43:20Z")
Which brings up another question, albeit from the film. When the comely Elf maiden calls up the white horses, why the hell do these guys run _down stream_ instead of running _across_ the river? I wouldn’t hire those guys to rob a 7-11. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/24 "2010-01-13T02:42:14Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Which brings up another question, albeit from the film. > When the comely Elf maiden calls up the white horses, why the hell do these guys run _down stream_ instead of running _across_ the river? > I wouldn’t hire those guys to rob a 7-11. :rolleyes: It didn’t really play out like that in the book. They were crossing the already fast running river when Elrond, through the use of some magic, made the river rise and rush even harder. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/25 "2010-01-13T03:44:35Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > It didn’t really play out like that in the book. They were crossing the already fast running river when Elrond, through the use of some magic, made the river rise and rush even harder. Thanks, it’s been a while since I read LOTR. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/26 "2010-01-13T04:06:44Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > I’m certainly not a Middle Earth expert, as some of our fellow dopers, but it seems to me they were drawn to Frodo and was chasing him because of the ring, because they could sense the ring, but perhaps more importantly, it looks like “a hobbit with a ring” was something of utmost importance to Sauron and later Saruman. I don’t think so. I think they were simply looking for hobbits, specifically for a Baggins. It’s not until Frodo puts the ring on that they are aware of it. I think it’s not quite “awake” enough yet (unlike when F. gets closer to Mordor) to call out to them quite like that. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/27 "2010-01-13T04:10:25Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > Also, one of the very foolish scenes in the movie is right here on Weathertop, when Aragorn throws the torch in the “face” of one nazgul, who appearantly has no idea where he is, what the whole dust-up is about, and that he is a ring wraith—and then gets a torch somehow stuck in his non physical head and runs away with a girly scream of sorts. There are several “illusion breakers” like this in the movies, which still bothers me. Sorry. Definitely poetic license on PJ’s part, but I think the “non-physical” aspect isn’t correct. They’re just _unseen_. The Witch King has a head to be severed and a knee to be stabbed. Frodo has a finger to be bitten off. The Nazgul just can no longer remove their bodies from the “unseen world”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/28 "2010-01-13T05:10:00Z")
Yes, remember that Tolkein describes the stab by Meriadoc as having an affect on the sinews of his leg. Wraith != ghost. The Ring calls to the Nazgûl. From LotR, “A Knife in the Dark”: " ‘They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, to, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence - it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also,’ he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, ‘_the Ring draws them_.’ " (pg. 202), emphasis added So the Nazgûl certainly knew the Ring was there, and probably would have figured out who was carrying it given time in the presence of it, even had Frodo not put it on. But when he put it on, it made it trivial for them to figure it out, as he became at that moment visible in their world, on the other side. And the Nazgûl, while certainly formidable enemies, are not really that powerful arrayed against determined resistence; it’s usually their ability to instill incredible dread in their opponents that helps them be so overwhelming. Certainly the Witchking can swing a mace, but note that his mace merely manages to break Eowyn’s arm, rather than smashing her flat into the ground or some such. Presumably, his brethren wraiths are less powerful than he is. If they could simply overcome physical resistance easily, they would have themselves attacked the Prancing Pony (as Jackson shows happening, though the book makes it clear that the Inn attack is the work of minions, not the wraiths themselves) and taken the Ring then and there. And Strider is not just any man; hell, he heals people simply by crushing certain aromatic leaves then laying his hands on you. He’s a descendant of Melian, and it’s clear that he’s got some residual power from that. Finally, in the text, while Gandalf says the splinter was working inwards, he doesn’t say it’s headed toward the heart specifically. The heart is mentioned as related to the attempted stab of the Morgul blade; apparently if you are stabbed in the heart by such a magic blade, you don’t die, but become a wraith. It is, I think, a reasonable assumption that a splinter remaining in the wound and working deeper is likely seeking the heart, but it’s not specifically said. And at the Ford of Bruinen, the Witchking is already almost all the way across the ford when the waters are released, and the sudden flood overwhelms him and two others. The rest are then driven into the water by the onrushing Glorfindel (in all his angry, other-world glory) and Aragorn and the other hobbits. Imagine a sudden flash flood without any warning: first surprise, then shock, then a reaction too late. Thankfully. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/29 "2010-01-13T08:00:29Z")
> [@](#): > > And the Nazgûl, while certainly formidable enemies, are not really that powerful arrayed against determined resistence; it’s usually their ability to instill incredible dread in their opponents that helps them be so overwhelming. So their weapons are fear and surprise …and a ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to sauron …and nice black cloaks ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/30 "2010-01-13T08:49:36Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Anybody seen him and Skald together at the same time? And what would the theme of that particular DopeFest have been, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/31 "2010-01-13T11:49:12Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > Definitely poetic license on PJ’s part, but I think the “non-physical” aspect isn’t correct. They’re just _unseen_. The Witch King has a head to be severed and a knee to be stabbed. Just came back in to address the head thing: in the book, the head is not “severed.” Instead, as the Witchking stumbles forward, his stroke to kill Eowyn having gone wide as Merry stabs behind the knee, Eowyn thrusts her sword into the space between the cloak and the crown, in effect stabbing him in the head/neck. This is what kills him. The head severing thing is more PJ poetic license (the man basically thinks poetic license is a license to steal! :p). ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/32 "2010-01-13T14:35:36Z")
> [@wakinyan](#): > > but none was in one way or the other told to kill hobbits. > [@](#): > > they would have themselves attacked the Prancing Pony (as Jackson shows happening, though the book makes it clear that the Inn attack is the work of minions, not the wraiths themselves) Um… Which minions kicked the shit out of a bunch of pillows? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/33 "2010-01-13T16:29:27Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Just came back in to address the head thing: in the book, the head is not “severed.” Instead, as the Witchking stumbles forward, his stroke to kill Eowyn having gone wide as Merry stabs behind the knee, Eowyn thrusts her sword into the space between the cloak and the crown, in effect stabbing him in the head/neck. This is what kills him. The head severing thing is more PJ poetic license (the man basically thinks poetic license is a license to steal! :p). Actually, PJ got it right. Eowyn stabs the WK in the “face”, which is what also happens in the book. “…with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle…” I misremembered Tolkien on this point; I thought she swung, rather than thrust. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/34 "2010-01-13T16:46:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_Q](#): > > So their weapons are fear and surprise …and a ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to sauron > …and nice black cloaks I’ll come in again. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673/35 "2010-01-13T19:17:29Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Um… > > Which minions kicked the shit out of a bunch of pillows? Presumably Bill Ferny and his crowd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-nazgul/524673.md?page=1)