# Question about the old Greek story about the Spartan boy who stole a fox . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784 "2006-11-17T03:29:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/1 "2006-11-17T03:29:06Z")
. . . and then, when a woman engaged him in talk, kept quiet and stoic while the fox under his shirt was chewing his guts out. Very impressive. But why would anybody steal a fox? Why would anybody **have** a fox to steal? They’re very rarely kept as pets today, I doubt they **ever** were kept as pets in ancient Greece, and they’re not good for anything else. A **dead** fox is worth something for it pelt and tail, but that’s all; and the one in the story wasn’t dead. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/2 "2006-11-17T09:57:47Z")
Maybe for hunting? either to hunt the fox for fun, or to employ the fox as a substitute hound. Just a WAG, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/3 "2006-11-17T10:02:26Z")
Spartan history is full or legends. As a nation, they did not write much, but encouraged others to think they were very fearsome. Sort of an early attempt at psychological intimidation. That being said, part of the training of Spartan boys was to steal. They thought it encouraged initiative. Punishment (lashings) were meted out not for stealing, but for the crime of getting caught. Was any of this ever true? How much? The part about the fox? Hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/4 "2006-11-17T11:03:15Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] . . . and then, when a woman engaged him in talk, kept quiet and stoic while the fox under his shirt was chewing his guts out. Very impressive. But why would anybody steal a fox? Why would anybody **have** a fox to steal? They’re very rarely kept as pets today, I doubt they **ever** were kept as pets in ancient Greece, and they’re not good for anything else. A **dead** fox is worth something for it pelt and tail, but that’s all; and the one in the story wasn’t dead. [/QUOTE] Do you have a link to that story because I’ve never heared it? ---
**Author:** ![mittu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@mittu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mittu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/5 "2006-11-17T11:56:32Z")
This seems to be the story though perhaps a shortened version: > [@](#): > > Spartan children were taught stories of courage and fortitude. One favorite story was about a boy who followed the Spartan code. He captured a live fox and intended to eat it. Although boys were encouraged to scrounge for food, they were punished if caught. The boy noticed some Spartan soldiers coming, and hid the fox beneath his shirt. When the soldiers confronted him, he allowed the fox to chew into his stomach rather than confess, and showed no sign of pain in his body or face. This was the Spartan way. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/6 "2006-11-17T12:08:43Z")
Hunting _with_ foxes is forbidden in Spain. Kind of makes me assume people must’a done it at some point. (I know people who use other animals whose use is also forbidden… several relatives of the mink) ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/7 "2006-11-17T14:32:44Z")
This is a relatively common story, it showed up in my university textbooks, for one thing (as an example of the spartan mindset, not as a true story). The way I heard it, the boy (as were all spartan boys) lived in a military training school, and like all boys was kept hungry, to encourage craftiness and toughness. He had stolen a fox (to eat. Presumably it was kept alive so the flesh wouldn’t go bad.) But befor he could secure his prize, there was an inspection, meaning that he had to stand in line, absolutely still. Rather than facing the shame of flinching during inspection, and of being caught read-handed stealing, he kept still, and the fox, stuffed under his tunic, killed him. He was remembered as a rolemodel for all boys to follow. The Spartans idealized the ability to withstand pain or hardship without showing the “weakness” of flinching or making a sound. And as **Paul in Saudi** pointed out, the boys were never punished for stealing, if anything it was encouraged. But the punishment for being caught was severe. The purpose for this might have been to encourage boys to develop observational and tactical skills (where is the food? when is it guarded?), as well as the ability to live off whatever you can find. So the boy will have had plenty of reason for doing what he did, or rather, the story has a very usefull moral for a society like the spartan one. A similar story, one that is slightly more likely to be true, is that of the grown man who had been convicted of something, and was to be flogged. The man who flogged him, or the judge, wanted to force him to shame himself, and so ordered the flogging to continue until he cried out in pain. However, no matter how much they flogged him, he did not make a sound, and died before the beating stopped. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/8 "2006-11-17T15:09:38Z")
[QUOTE=mittu] This seems to be the story though perhaps a shortened version: [/QUOTE] :eek: Eat it?! Eat a **fox?!** (That’s a straight line, guys. It’s just lying there ever so plump and juicy . . .) ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/9 "2006-11-17T16:00:07Z")
The version I heard was slightly different. In that one, the fox was a sacred animal which was housed in a temple in a enemy village. The boy was detected, but rather than allow himself to be caught in the act (which would lead to repercussions on his village) he stood there stoicly while the fox tore up his guts. (Though one would think that the person talking to him might have noticed the moving lump beneath his tunic or the blood seeping through it.) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/10 "2006-11-17T16:21:26Z")
[This passage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta) from Wikipedia chimes with what I recall from college. "At the age of thirteen, young men were arranged into groups, and were sent off into the countryside with nothing, and were expected to survive on wits and cunning. It was assumed that they would steal their food, yet anyone caught stealing was severely punished. Many speculate that this was to teach the young Spartans stealth and quickness. If you were caught it was concluded that you were not quick enough or silent enough. This was called the Crypteia, secret (ritual). This was very probably, in origin, an old initiation rite, a preparation for their later career as elite soldiers. Other sources claim that the Crypteia (or Krypteia) was an “adolescent death squad” made up of the most promising young Spartans. Their job was to roam the countryside killing Helots at night in order to instill fear in the slave population and prevent rebellion." ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/11 "2006-11-17T16:39:36Z")
The story of the boy and the fox is told in the _Laconian Apophthegmata_ - “Spartan stories”, written by Plutarch in the 1st century as part of a larger collection of various essays, etc. known as the _Moralia_: > [@](#): > > When the time came for free children, according to custom, to steal whatever they could and being caught was considered disgraceful, another young boy was guarding a live fox cub his companions had stolen and given to him, when the owners appeared looking for it. Just then, he thrust it under his himation and, even though the animal was devouring his side through to his entrails, kept quiet so that he would not be discovered. Later, when they had gone away, the boys saw what had happened and criticized him, saying that it was better to show the fox cub than to hide it until death. “No way!” he said, “It’s better to die without giving in to pain than to be caught out because I was soft and put a shamefully high value on living.” (Kennel, N. “The Gymnasium of Virtue: Education and Culture in Ancient Sparta.” University of North Carolina Press (1995)) I’m not very familiar with this work, so I can’t check the original text, but I believe this is the primary written source for the story. The detail of a fox in particular is interesting; it has led many scholars to question the origin of this anecdote, since foxes were not generally eaten in the ancient world (much less in conservative Sparta). However, foxes do figure in other stories of Spartan education (the animal’s cunning was considered a role model; the Greek word used for some Spartan training is reported as _phouaddei_ - “play the fox”; and Aristophanes uses the term in two separate plays when referring to a Spartan). In short, according to Kennel, “the appearance of a fox cub in this situation is too unusual to have come from a non-Spartan source, but is completely consistent with the symbolic representation of Spartan youths.” This of course speaks only to the origin of the anecdote, not whether or not the events actually happened. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/12 "2006-11-17T22:21:07Z")
And yet he was still found out… (or the story is fictionalized). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/13 "2006-11-17T23:19:13Z")
What did foxes symbolically represent in Sparta? The story may not have the obvious meaning. If foxes symbolized, say, an illicit sexual relationship, the story may take on a whole new meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/14 "2006-11-18T14:18:06Z")
Sure he was found out, but only when he was dead, and by then it was too late to catch him in the act. Stealing wasn’t the crime here, remember? The fox had much the same symbolism it does today (trickster, bold, crafty) I think. Could be more than that, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/15 "2006-11-18T14:23:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :eek: Eat it?! Eat a **fox?!** (That’s a straight line, guys. It’s just lying there ever so plump and juicy . . .) [/QUOTE] Good thing the legend isn’t sent in Thebes or he’d have to eat a puss. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-old-greek-story-about-the-spartan-boy-who-stole-a-fox/380784/16 "2006-11-18T14:44:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] If foxes symbolized, say, an illicit sexual relationship, the story may take on a whole new meaning. [/QUOTE] What sort of sexual relationship would the Spartans consider illicit?