# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Modevo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Modevo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Modevo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/1 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")
If this had been a racially motivated crime against a white man, would it have received as much media attention? I’m mixed race by the way, so don’t take this as “Oh, this white guy is trying to be a smart aleck” like many people would. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/2 "2012-04-11T22:47:08Z")
Media attention? No, because it would have been investigated and prosecuted. Here’s a stand your ground case in GA, where a black homeowner was attacked by a threatening white guy, on the homeowner’s property. Not a stranger or unknown person, but someone with a well documented history of threatening this man and his family. In the end, the black homeowner was found guilty of murder, for defending himself. > **[When "stand your ground" fails](https://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/)** > > John McNeil killed a white man who assaulted him on his property. But, unlike George Zimmerman, he's serving life ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/3 "2012-04-11T22:50:58Z")
Yeah, I’ve heard this brought up a lot, and it just seems silly. 28 year old black man shoots unarmed 17 year old white kid coming home from the store? Of course it wouldn’t receive media attention, because the killer would be in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/4 "2012-04-11T22:54:04Z")
We don’t know that it was a racially motivated crime. My inclination is that Zimmerman pursued Martin because Martin was black and wouldn’t have found him suspicious otherwise, but that hasn’t been proved in court or elsewhere, and once he made the decision to pursue him, I’m not sure anything else would have mattered. That being said: I think that if a black guy had shot a white guy in similar circumstances, the black guy would have been arrested at the scene and prosecuted. So no, the case wouldn’t have been more than a blip on the radar screen, although it’s not impossible that Fox News or someone of their ilk would have used the shooting as part of a broader complaint that the media was ignoring anti-white racism. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/5 "2012-04-11T22:54:23Z")
> [@Modevo](#): > > If this had been a\*\* racially motivated\*\* crime against a white man… How does this relate to the Martin/Zimmerman issue? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/6 "2012-04-11T23:03:58Z")
You know what confuses me about this case? The fact that the stand your ground law seems to apply more clearly to Trayvon than Zimmerman but that nobody seems to be talking about it. By my reading, the law gives you the right to respond with force when confronted with aggressive harassment. Thus, Trayvon would be within his rights to punch Zimmerman in the face when he was confronted; under the law he had no duty to retreat. Zimmerman, on the other hand, was the initial aggressor in this confrontation. The stand your ground law does not give you the right to follow, hassle, confront, detain, or in any other way bother people walking through your neighborhood. Does this mean that in Florida I can pick a fight with someone and then shoot them to end the fight? ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/7 "2012-04-11T23:12:00Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > You know what confuses me about this case? The fact that the stand your ground law seems to apply more clearly to Trayvon than Zimmerman but that nobody seems to be talking about it. By my reading, the law gives you the right to respond with force when confronted with aggressive harassment. Thus, Trayvon would be within his rights to punch Zimmerman in the face when he was confronted; under the law he had no duty to retreat. Zimmerman, on the other hand, was the initial aggressor in this confrontation. The stand your ground law does not give you the right to follow, hassle, confront, detain, or in any other way bother people walking through your neighborhood. > > Does this mean that in Florida I can pick a fight with someone and then shoot them to end the fight? Following someone is not illegal, even though in this case it seems like a very poor decision. When people respond with violence to being followed by paparazzi they are breaking the law, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/8 "2012-04-11T23:16:06Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Following someone is not illegal, even though in this case it seems like a very poor decision. When people respond with violence to being followed by paparazzi they are breaking the law, for example. It was more than following though, by all accounts Zimmermin confronted and possibly attempted to detain Trayvon. Give me a few minutes and I will quote the relevant portions of the law… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/9 "2012-04-11T23:22:40Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Following someone is not illegal, even though in this case it seems like a very poor decision. The issue is not “is the other person breaking the law,” it’s “do you feel your are in danger of death or serious injury?” The law is about your duty to retreat (or lack thereof) when you have reason to believe someone is going to hurt or kill you. [Here’s the law.](http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html) > [@](#): > > 776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, **a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if: > (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another** or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony As I understand it, it’s actually the next section of the law (776.013) that is the stand your ground/castle doctrine part, and immunity from prosecution part is 776.032. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/10 "2012-04-12T00:32:34Z")
Also this section: > [@](#): > > 776.013 (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. Nobody but Zimmerman knows what exactly happened that night, but it is clear that he confronted Trayvon. Trayvon had no duty to retreat and was lawfully allowed to meet any force with force. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/11 "2012-04-12T00:37:05Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Trayvon had no duty to retreat and was lawfully allowed to meet any force with force. Right? The answer is in your quote: yes, if he reasonably believed it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another person. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/12 "2012-04-12T00:48:17Z")
It is such a stupid law. I am all for explicitly giving people the right to defend themselves, even with deadly force if necessary. But people should have a reponibility to retreat; force should be the last resort and only used if there are no other options available. I fully expect there to be more controversial deaths in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/13 "2012-04-12T00:58:25Z")
The really stupid part and the part that caused this controversy is the “immunity from prosecution” clause, which is so idiotic I’m amazed anybody had the nerve to try to get it passed into law in the first place. I can understand that at least in some situations it’s not reasonable to require people to retreat or wait to figure out what a criminal’s intent is. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/14 "2012-04-12T01:09:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The really stupid part and the part that caused this controversy is the “immunity from prosecution” clause, which is so idiotic I’m amazed anybody had the nerve to try to get it passed into law in the first place. I can understand that at least in some situations it’s not reasonable to require people to retreat or wait to figure out what a criminal’s intent is. Exactly. since when can’t a prosecutor at least investigate a killing. The NRA and cohorts got this law passed and IMO are largely responsible. As on other threads on this subject I wish we could start talking about these laws and how to overturn them without destroying the right to self defense any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/15 "2012-04-12T01:15:55Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > As on other threads on this subject I wish we could start talking about these laws and how to overturn them without destroying the right to self defense any thoughts? Unless you think Stand Your Ground laws and immunity from prosecution clauses are required for a right to self defense, the answer is pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/16 "2012-04-12T01:27:14Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Exactly. since when can’t a prosecutor at least investigate a killing. The NRA and cohorts got this law passed and IMO are largely responsible. As on other threads on this subject I wish we could start talking about these laws and how to overturn them without destroying the right to self defense any thoughts? As a gun nut and second amendment fellator and self defense fan…hell if I know. I’m sad though that these national debate cases are always about race or some other bullshit, and the culture among gun nuts is pretty toxic. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/17 "2012-04-12T01:30:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Unless you think Stand Your Ground laws and immunity from prosecution clauses are required for a right to self defense, the answer is pretty obvious. No Marley I don’t, I am very pessimistic about this particular case and IMO the discussion needed to start yesterday, It seems clear from this law that you can be aggressive and claim self defense, this is a gross distortion of the concept of self defense. This law lets you create a threat then defend yourself from said threat:confused: ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/18 "2012-04-12T01:32:06Z")
Barney Fife on self-defense. [Pointers On Self Defense - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo10xdN2Rds) Something tells me there was a lot of the 'ol Barney in George Zimmerman. Tonight, Chris Matthews’s show had numbers from a WaPo-ABC poll that showed 5% of white Americans thought Zimmerman acted in self-defense, 39% thought he was guilty of murder and 56% said they didn’t have enough information. I hold with the 56%. We just don’t know. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/19 "2012-04-12T01:32:33Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > No Marley I don’t, I am very pessimistic about this particular case and IMO the discussion needed to start yesterday, It seems clear from this law that you can be aggressive and claim self defense, this is a gross distortion of the concept of self defense. This law lets you create a threat then defend yourself from said threat:confused: You forgot that you also have to not be black, that is the most important thing. > **[When "stand your ground" fails - Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/)** > > John McNeil killed a white man who assaulted him on his property. But, unlike George Zimmerman, he's serving life ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/20 "2012-04-12T01:36:36Z")
> [@grude](#): > > As a gun nut and second amendment fellator and self defense fan…hell if I know. I’m sad though that these national debate cases are always about race or some other bullshit, and the culture among gun nuts is pretty toxic. Well at least IDK is a good place to start, I think we as responsible gun owners are a little freaked when something like this happens, we tend to get lumped in with the same group that will do anything/say anything to absolve Zimmerman of any responsibility for his actions and blame a kid for his own death. Self defense is one thing, canned hunts a whole nother [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=2)