# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/181 "2012-04-14T14:59:08Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No, they are not. They are a reponse to cases in which people are forced into a violent confrontation against their will, react in an instant, and then go bankrupt defending themselves in court. The immediate cause was a widely-publicized case of an old man put on trial for defending himself. > > It may or may not be a bad law, but the \*intent \*was to eliminate those kinds of situations. As the senator who sponsored it says: On the NPR show with a former FL prosecutor his opinion was that the jury should hear the evidence and decide whether it’s self defense, not the SYG law. I think self defense is already a viable defense without the SYG law, but what it seems to create is a situation where someone might be able to provoke a fight, kill the person whom they provoke and claim SYG. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/182 "2012-04-14T15:01:15Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I don’t know. I hope it can be determined at trial. It seems marginally plausible if he wanted to apprehend the suspect (assuming he thought he had a right to make a citizen’s arrest), at which point Martin may have resisted. That said, there are other ways in which he could have been hostile that may have meant he initiated the aggression without using the firearm. I can’t claim that scenario as more likely than Martin initiating force based on the minimal data I’ve read in the threads so far though. He had absolutely no right to even question Martin since Martin had done nothing wrong, much less, detain him or make a citizen’s arrest. Any attempt to detain , threaten,or arrest without authority would be assault on Zimmerman’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/183 "2012-04-14T15:05:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > He had absolutely no right to even question Martin since Martin had done nothing wrong, much less, detain him or make a citizen’s arrest. Any attempt to detain , threaten,or arrest without authority would be assault on Zimmerman’s part. You switch from question to detain etc. He had full right to question Martin. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/184 "2012-04-14T15:12:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Same problem. Specifically, what does “approached in a hostile fashion” mean as far as actions and words? The story is, Martin came up behind Z’man, asked “Do you have a problem with me?” Z’man said “No” Martin said “You do now” and threw the punch that knocked him down. Z’man’s Dad even added Martin saying " You’re going to die tonight" BS IMO I’d say in Z’man was hostile in the sense of aggressively questioning his presence there, which he had no authority to do, raised his voice, said anything similar to what he said in his 911 call “on drugs, up to no good, A-hole” IOW if he still assumed MArtin was guilty of something, Martin could perceive him as a threat. If he went a step further and attempted to detain Martin, even just grabbing his arm, Martin was justified in punching him. If he even revealed his gun on hip in order to intimidate , I’d say Martin was justified, but that’s for the court to decide. I’m fairly convinced they were struggling for the gun. While I understand Z’man’s panic and the real threat in his mind in that scenario , if he was the aggressor SYG seems to apply to Martin, not him. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/185 "2012-04-14T15:17:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You switch from question to detain etc. He had full right to question Martin. Then let me say authority, rather than right. Of course it’s not against the law to question someone but they have no obligation to answer with anything other than an “Up Yours” if you are not the police. Z’man needed to recognize that. If I’m walking on the street and someone challenge me “What Are you doing here?” My 1st question might be “Who are you and why should I be answering your questions?” from my reading Z’man had an issue with assuming more authority than he had, which was NONE. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/186 "2012-04-14T15:21:59Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > The issues we have with this case is more media related. Information have been contradictory. > > From what I understand, the neighborhood Zim patrolled had seen an increase in crime statistics from young black men. Presuming this nugget of info is true (cant say either way), I can see Zimmermans suspicions in following the young man. Remember, this wasnt the 14 y/o in the picture, this was a 6’2" male. > > I believe Zim suspected the young man because he was a black young man (Possibly matching previous information from the statistics). So I do believe race was an issue. Following after Martin, after Zim was “advised” not too, was a bad decision, but not one that was against the law. > > The info I have read also seemed to indicate that after the confrontation, Zim went back to his vehicle, losing sight of Martin for a short period. Martin then showed up confronting Zim and demanding to know why he was following him. > > It was then when Martin bloodied Zims nose, then after knocking him down, slamming his head against the ground. Injuries sustained to the back of Zims head, and grass stains seems to be physical evidence to corroborate this. I believe it was the UPI that reported that a witness saw Martin on top of Zim at this point. > > It was at this point Zim pulled his gun killing the young man. > > Is this what happened? Who knows. But the injuries sustained by Zim seems to indicate assault. > > Morally I would say that Zim should have never confronted the young man. Additionally, the young man should have never returned in aggression. > > Both were wrong. There’s really nothing to indicate he went back to his vehicle. He told the police he didn’t know where Martin was , and they tried to arrange for him to meet them somewhere but he declined and said to call him when they got there and he would tell them where he was. So, we don’t know if he intended to wait in his vehicle or continue to look around , or who approached who. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/187 "2012-04-14T15:22:00Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Then let me say authority, rather than right. Of course it’s not against the law to question someone but they have no obligation to answer with anything other than an “Up Yours” if you are not the police. Z’man needed to recognize that. And? > [@](#): > > If I’m walking on the street and someone challenge me “What Are you doing here?” My 1st question might be “Who are you and why should I be answering your questions?” And? > [@](#): > > from my reading Z’man had an issue with assuming more authority than he had, which was NONE. Replace “reading” with “fantasies” and you’d be right. By the way, according to the girlfriend’s account, Martin is the one who “aggressively questioned” Zimmerman first. Let me get into \*\*cosmosdan \*\*mode here: Of course it’s not against the law to question someone but they have no obligation to answer with anything other than an “Up Yours” if you are not the police. Martin needed to recognize that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/188 "2012-04-14T15:35:19Z")
Well, the good news is that Zimmerman, like Colbert, doesn’t see race. Otherwise, he might have known something almost all the rest of us know, that young black men are likely to respond with anxiety and trepidation upon being followed by a white man. Refreshing, perhaps, but naive. Perhaps “stupid” is the word. Its also important that we teach our kids not to walk about looking like they are on drugs, and recklessly eyeballing other people’s houses. A purposeful stride, perhaps, or carrying a clipboard. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/189 "2012-04-14T15:52:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > There’s really nothing to indicate he went back to his vehicle. He told the police he didn’t know where Martin was , and they tried to arrange for him to meet them somewhere but he declined and said to call him when they got there and he would tell them where he was. > > So, we don’t know if he intended to wait in his vehicle or continue to look around , or who approached who. It’s also worth noting that if you look at google maps, or any pictures of the property you’ll notice that Martin’s body was quite far from anywhere Zimmerman would have parked. That’s also another reason why Zimmerman’s claim that he only got out of his car to check a sign was an obvious lie. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/190 "2012-04-14T15:56:05Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The bottom line is, don’t be the one without a gun. Prompting the new neighborhood watch slogan: “See Something, Shoot Something!” ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/191 "2012-04-14T16:50:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And? > And? > Replace “reading” with “fantasies” and you’d be right. No, not fantasies, unless you’re assuming you’ve read every article written on the matter. There was an article in which a former co-worker from some security job says Z’man was fired for being to aggressive and getting physical when people didn’t follow his instructions. He said normally he was a great guy but could go off if challenged. I can’t attest to the accuracy of that article but his work record can be checked and if the case is about his mindset, then it’s relevant. Another article said he took his role as NW seriously, to the point where a couple of his own neighbors had complained about him following and questioning people and over stepping his authority. One even called the police to lodge a complaint, which again, can be checked and is relevant. In an article about how many times he’d called 911, one black neighbor said he had mentioned young black male suspects so many times in his emails to neighbors that he decided he’d better not go out at night. I’m aware none of this is hard proof of anything, but neither is it fantasy. IMO Z’man demonstrates bad judgement \and a certain mindset n his 911 call by assuming Martin’s guilt with virtually zero to go on other than his appearance. I’ll add that at least one person calling 911 said she heard loud voices like people having a shouting argument , other than just cries help. That means it’s possible the discussion got very heated before a punch was thrown which somewhat contradicts what Z’man’s friend and family have been saying. > [@](#): > > By the way, according to the girlfriend’s account, Martin is the one who “aggressively questioned” Zimmerman first. Let me get into \*\*cosmosdan \*\*mode here: > > Of course it’s not against the law to question someone but they have no obligation to answer with anything other than an “Up Yours” if you are not the police. Martin needed to recognize that. We have no idea how aggressive Martin was when he asked “Why are you following me” Maybe yes maybe no. According to her Z’man’s response was “What are you doing here?” rather than an explanation or any recognition that Martin might simply be someone visiting. What bother’s me is Z’man’s obvious judgement of Martin as guilty of something just from his walking around. That’s revealed in his 911 call. I have to wonder if that assumption carried into their confrontation. IMO, an acknowledgement that Martin might be completely innocent of any wrong doing, and a recognition of his lack of authority , requires Z/man to explain his reason for following and questioning Martin, to Martin rather than demanding Martin answer. Sure it’s possible Martin was really pissed at the idea of Z’man getting out to follow him and approached him aggressively. I’m not claiming any speculation on my part as factual. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/192 "2012-04-14T16:52:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, the good news is that Zimmerman, like Colbert, doesn’t see race. Otherwise, he might have known something almost all the rest of us know, that young black men are likely to respond with anxiety and trepidation upon being followed by a white man. Refreshing, perhaps, but naive. Perhaps “stupid” is the word. > > Its also important that we teach our kids not to walk about looking like they are on drugs, and recklessly eyeballing other people’s houses. A purposeful stride, perhaps, or carrying a clipboard. How about a book. Algebra , or something, and maybe some glasses with tape in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/193 "2012-04-14T16:58:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The story is, Martin came up behind Z’man, asked “Do you have a problem with me?” > Z’man said “No” > Martin said “You do now” and threw the punch that knocked him down. > Z’man’s Dad even added Martin saying " You’re going to die tonight" > BS IMO I don’t express an opinion on the likelihood of that scenario, but if that is exactly what happened, it’s hard for me to see any legal liability for Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > If he went a step further and attempted to detain Martin, even just grabbing his arm, Martin was justified in punching him. Absolutely correct. (Except for your statement that Zimmerman had “no authority” to question martin’s presence there – Zimmerman had as much authority as Chief Lee or FBI Director Mueller or Governor Scott would have had. Any person is legally entitled to approach any other person in public and ask them questions.) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/194 "2012-04-14T17:36:34Z")
I think it’s also worth noting that anyone who feels the need to strap on a gun to go to the grocery store is probably more than a little paranoid and combined with his other behavior suggests that Zimmerman was somewhat impulsive and was a wannabe cop. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/195 "2012-04-14T17:37:21Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not claiming any speculation on my part as factual. … non-factual = fantasies ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/196 "2012-04-14T17:38:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think it’s also worth noting that anyone who feels the need to strap on a gun to go to the grocery store is probably more than a little paranoid and combined with his other behavior suggests that Zimmerman was somewhat impulsive and was a wannabe cop. What do you think the point of CCW license is? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/197 "2012-04-14T17:49:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What do you think the point of CCW license is? There are many people who do need them for cause, they just tend to not be very vocal. I was forced to carry for a bit…I have no issues with those who do carry but you take on additional responsibility as a human when you make that choice. Things changed and the threat that had caused me to need to carry went away permanently so I stopped but the point of a CCW really isn’t just for the “enthusiasts”. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/198 "2012-04-14T17:55:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What do you think the point of CCW license is? I don’t see the point of your question. I merely said that I think anyone who feels the need to strap a gun to their hip every time they drive to the grocery store(which is what Zimmerman claims he was doing) is rather paranoid and impulsive. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/199 "2012-04-14T19:06:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t see the point of your question. > > I merely said that I think anyone who feels the need to strap a gun to their hip every time they drive to the grocery store(which is what Zimmerman claims he was doing) is rather paranoid and impulsive. Why do you think people apply for and get CCW licenses? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/200 "2012-04-14T20:54:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why do you think people apply for and get CCW licenses? That’s a red herring which has nothing to do with my statement that Zimmerman seemed to be paranoid if he felt the need to strap a gun to his hip to go to the grocery store. That said, I’ll humor you and answer it if you answer one for me. Do you think that it isn’t a bit paranoid for someone to feel the need to strap a gun to their hip when they’re driving to the grocery store? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=11)