# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/221 "2012-04-15T03:35:47Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and here’s my beef with you. When I form an opinion you rather casually dismiss them as fantasies and make the smart ass { non factual = fantasies} comment. Rather smug wouldn’t you say? > > They you immediatly follow up with your own non factual specualtion/opinion and defend it how? With facts. I showed you the overzealousness. And I don’t have to show you the political pressure, it’s obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/222 "2012-04-15T03:40:10Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But that is not a sign of an overzealous prosecutor. In fact, from what I have heard, it is pretty common. You don’t bluff four aces in hold-em with only one ace showing after the river. When you overcharge, to force the defense to plea, you have to have a chance in hell to actually win your case. Corey cannot pretend to have some dynamite evidence - she HAS to disclose all evidence she holds to defense lawyers in discovery, right now. So, unless she discloses to them that explosive proof that she didn’t mention in the affidavit, all she added to known facts is that Martin’s mother thinks it’s his voice shouting for help. That’s about as thin as you can get and will never meet the “reasonable doubt” standard. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/223 "2012-04-15T03:42:48Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think his 911 call and other things I’ve mentioned points to a state of mind. I think if Z’man , judging Martin to be guilty of something, did anything like try to detain, or flash his weapon to intimidate, which led to the physical confrontation, which led to the shooting, the argument of murder can be made. If Z’man hangs tough I don’t know hoiw she can prove it. She cannot. There is no known witness to this. Sje may have a secret witness that saw it, but I doubt it. With the case leaking like this, it would have come out by now. There is no way for her to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. She is bluffing, openly and stupidly. > [@](#): > > Also, if the forensic audio folks can convince that it is not Z’man yelling for help on the tape, that may speak to the mind set that constitutes murder as well. I already showed here the article in which multiple forensic audio experts dispute the Sentinel’s experts. Do you think it will be hard to bring them to trial? Then you have battle of the experts. Good luck getting past “reasonable doubt”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/224 "2012-04-15T03:56:43Z")
Yip, she’s overzealous. That’s why she initially told the police that she couldn’t charge him with anything… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/225 "2012-04-15T04:13:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yip, she’s overzealous. That’s why she initially told the police that she couldn’t charge him with anything… When did she initially say that? Do you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/226 "2012-04-15T04:13:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He might be under legal threat. But Corey overcharged, pretty obviously, in my opinion. Unless she has a secret witness who, with night-vision-goggles, observed Zimmerman sucker-punching Martin while screaming racial epithets, she is not going to get murder second degree. I’m kinda glad she overcharged though. It will blow up in her face. Geeze!! How about the fact that Zimmerman told one story to police, and then completely changed his story after they played him the 911 tapes? Oh, I don’t know if that happened. But neither do you. Where does your confidence come from? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/227 "2012-04-15T04:42:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How about the fact that Zimmerman told one story to police, and then completely changed his story after they played him the 911 tapes? I know you’re being facetious, but actually, I saw in one of the news reports that one of the policemen who interrogated Zimmerman for five hours immediately after the incident said Zimmerman didn’t change his story even once. Ah here it is: > **[A look at what happened the night Trayvon Martin died](https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/a-look-at-what-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083/)** > > Sunday evening, Feb. 26: It was raining in Central Florida while the NBA All-Stars game and the Oscars were about to begin on TV. Police stressed that Zimmerman was interviewed at least three times and gave a videotaped statement and a walk-through of what happened. Zimmerman, whose father is a retired Virginia magistrate, never asked for an attorney or changed his story, former Sanford police Chief Bill Lee said. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/228 "2012-04-15T10:52:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > With facts. I showed you the overzealousness. And I don’t have to show you the political pressure, it’s obvious. No you didn’t. You based your speculation on certain facts, but since I’m pretty sure mind reading is not one of your abilities , you can’t possibly know her motives. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/229 "2012-04-15T13:40:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You don’t bluff four aces in hold-em with only one ace showing after the river. When you overcharge, to force the defense to plea, you have to have a chance in hell to actually win your case. Corey cannot pretend to have some dynamite evidence - she HAS to disclose all evidence she holds to defense lawyers in discovery, right now. They have not reached the point of disclosure, I believe. This stuff doesn’t happen all at once. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/230 "2012-04-15T14:13:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s a red herring which has nothing to do with my statement that Zimmerman seemed to be paranoid if he felt the need to strap a gun to his hip to go to the grocery store. > > That said, I’ll humor you and answer it if you answer one for me. > > Do you think that it isn’t a bit paranoid for someone to feel the need to strap a gun to their hip when they’re driving to the grocery store? I guess it depends on the crime level of the neighborhood. Personally, I think it’s weird and paranoid, but I don’t live in Florida (if I had to move to Florida, frankly I might wonder if I needed one to defend myself from the paranoid vigilantes) and didn’t grow up somewhere where many people think owning and carrying guns for use against people is a really important thing to do. That’s just the culture and place and background I grew up in. It’s not what George Zimmerman grew up in. Like it or not, CCW is the law in the State of Florida. You can’t use Zimmerman’s decision to exercise his right to carry a gun against him with stuff like “well, gosh, why take a gun to the store?” The whole point of CCW is that there is an inherent belief that ordinary citizens should have guns with them almost anywhere. That’s now a basic principle of Florida law. You can’t reverse it just for this case; that would be illogical and unfair. In fact, I’d argue that the case against Zimmerman would be vastly stronger (relative to what we know so far) **if in fact he usually didn’t carry his gun with him** , but instead pulled it out of his glove box or something this one time, when he was pursuing Martin. If he usually carries it then his having it when the confrontation began doesn’t really tell you anything, but if he took it specifically to enter into this confrontation, that suggests malicious intent. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/231 "2012-04-15T16:00:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > They have not reached the point of disclosure, I believe. This stuff doesn’t happen all at once. 15 days maximum after he is charged. It’s not there yet but it is soon. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/232 "2012-04-15T17:06:43Z")
Then, of course, the fact that such disclosure has not been made still stands. And your speculations on those facts remain just that, speculations. Firmly supported by insinuations, founded on rock solid innuendos. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/233 "2012-04-15T19:27:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > With facts. I showed you the overzealousness. And I don’t have to show you the political pressure, it’s obvious. **Terr** , you can see the problem though, no? In the long lead-up to this point, we were taught that one of the best reasons why we should believe that Zimmerman was innocent is that the police and prosecutors, who are more intimately acquainted with this case than any of us, had not charged him. But now we learn, apparently, that that failure to bring charges was immaterial, because at last charges have been preferred and that means nothing, as it is clearly at the behest of a politically motivated prosecutor. What bit of evidence will you state would be unequivocally inculpating? And if no such evidence exists to your mind, doesn’t that mean you are sort of inappropriately taking Zimmerman’s innocence, an empirically testable thesis, as _a priori_ (sorry, **Bricks** ) settled? ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/234 "2012-04-15T20:05:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I guess it depends on the crime level of the neighborhood. > > Personally, I think it’s weird and paranoid, but I don’t live in Florida (if I had to move to Florida, frankly I might wonder if I needed one to defend myself from the paranoid vigilantes) and didn’t grow up somewhere where many people think owning and carrying guns for use against people is a really important thing to do. That’s just the culture and place and background I grew up in. It’s not what George Zimmerman grew up in. > > Like it or not, CCW is the law in the State of Florida. You can’t use Zimmerman’s decision to exercise his right to carry a gun against him with stuff like “well, gosh, why take a gun to the store?” The whole point of CCW is that there is an inherent belief that ordinary citizens should have guns with them almost anywhere. That’s now a basic principle of Florida law. You can’t reverse it just for this case; that would be illogical and unfair. > > In fact, I’d argue that the case against Zimmerman would be vastly stronger (relative to what we know so far) **if in fact he usually didn’t carry his gun with him** , but instead pulled it out of his glove box or something this one time, when he was pursuing Martin. If he usually carries it then his having it when the confrontation began doesn’t really tell you anything, but if he took it specifically to enter into this confrontation, that suggests malicious intent. In any state with CCW it becomes the norm for a permit holder to carry a gun wherever it is legal. When I lived in Texas, it was just as natural to holster my pistol as it was to put on my shoes when I went out. No paranoia or fear involved. And it seemed sillier to not have the extra protection than to have it, when it is perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/235 "2012-04-15T20:13:01Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > What bit of evidence will you state would be unequivocally inculpating? And if no such evidence exists to your mind, doesn’t that mean you are sort of inappropriately taking Zimmerman’s innocence, an empirically testable thesis, as _a priori_ (sorry, **Bricks** ) settled? This is what I posted before: “Unless she has a secret witness who, with night-vision-goggles, observed Zimmerman sucker-punching Martin while screaming racial epithets, she is not going to get murder second degree.” But what I would expect for her to be able to even attempt to prove the charge is a witness (or preferably multiple ones) that saw Zimmerman initiate the physical confrontation or at least brandish a weapon. Lacking that, if she can show that Zimmerman shot Martin while sitting on him (maybe a bullet in the ground under Martin) that would be something. Without such explosive evidence she really has no way to prove her charge. If she has nothing like that, it is pure bluff and grandstanding. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/236 "2012-04-15T20:18:24Z")
Ooooh, **Counselor** gonna spank! ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/237 "2012-04-15T20:42:28Z")
I would think that the angle of the bullet from autopsy could put paid to much baseless speculation pretty easily. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/238 "2012-04-15T22:07:13Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I would think that the angle of the bullet from autopsy could put paid to much baseless speculation pretty easily. I think I know what you’re getting at. Maybe not so much the angle but more the presence or absence of powder residue. If Zimmerman shot Martin at close range during a scuffle then it would be more likely for residue to be found somewhere on Martin’s body. More likely but not absolutely a sure thing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/239 "2012-04-15T22:59:24Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I think I know what you’re getting at. Maybe not so much the angle but more the presence or absence of powder residue. If Zimmerman shot Martin at close range during a scuffle then it would be more likely for residue to be found somewhere on Martin’s body. More likely but not absolutely a sure thing. > **[Police leak details of George Zimmerman's account of Trayvon Martin shooting](https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-leak-details-of-george-zimmermans-account-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/1222087/)** > > SANFORD — With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, then climbed on top of him and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times before Zimmerman... Zimmerman then shot Martin **once in the chest from very close range** , authorities said, according to the Sentinel. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/240 "2012-04-15T23:01:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Police leak details of George Zimmerman's account of Trayvon Martin shooting](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-leak-details-of-george-zimmermans-account-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/1222087) > > Zimmerman then shot Martin **once in the chest from very close range** , authorities said, according to the Sentinel. That account is not based on forensic evidence. It is just what GZ told the police. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=13)