# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/241 "2012-04-16T00:45:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > This is what I posted before: > > “Unless she has a secret witness who, with night-vision-goggles, observed Zimmerman sucker-punching Martin while screaming racial epithets, she is not going to get murder second degree.” > > But what I would expect for her to be able to even attempt to prove the charge is a witness (or preferably multiple ones) that saw Zimmerman initiate the physical confrontation or at least brandish a weapon. Lacking that, if she can show that Zimmerman shot Martin while sitting on him (maybe a bullet in the ground under Martin) that would be something. > > Without such explosive evidence she really has no way to prove her charge. If she has nothing like that, it is pure bluff and grandstanding. you forgot to add IMHO,… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/242 "2012-04-16T00:56:37Z")
Some interesting stuff form the [Daily Beast](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/12/what-got-george-zimmerman-charged-with-second-degree-murder.html) and USA today has a decent [timeline](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1) and an[article about racial profiling](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-14/african-american-parents-talk-to-sons-about-race/54258448/1)and black parents having “the talk” as Martin’s father did with him. IMO it’s fairly obvious from Z’,man’s own words that he profiled Martin as guilty simply because of his appearence. Then assuming his guilt about something he gets out of his vehicle and attmpts to follow him, which resulted in MArtin’s being shot to death. I think this will be the point of the case. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/243 "2012-04-16T01:08:33Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Some interesting stuff form the [Daily Beast](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/12/what-got-george-zimmerman-charged-with-second-degree-murder.html) > > and USA today has a decent [timeline](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1) > > and an[article about racial profiling](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-14/african-american-parents-talk-to-sons-about-race/54258448/1)and black parents having “the talk” as Martin’s father did with him. > > IMO it’s fairly obvious from Z’,man’s own words that he profiled Martin as guilty simply because of his appearence. Then assuming his guilt about something he gets out of his vehicle and attmpts to follow him, which resulted in MArtin’s being shot to death. > > I think this will be the point of the case. I would say that Zimmerman was “suspicious” of Martin. And that doesn’t assume guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/244 "2012-04-16T01:29:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Some interesting stuff form the [Daily Beast](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/12/what-got-george-zimmerman-charged-with-second-degree-murder.html) > > and USA today has a decent [timeline](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-09/trayvon-martin-timeline-florida-shooting/54129274/1) > > and an[article about racial profiling](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-14/african-american-parents-talk-to-sons-about-race/54258448/1)and black parents having “the talk” as Martin’s father did with him. > > IMO it’s fairly obvious from Z’,man’s own words that he profiled Martin as guilty simply because of his appearence. Then assuming his guilt about something he gets out of his vehicle and attmpts to follow him, which resulted in MArtin’s being shot to death. > > I think this will be the point of the case. Not to mention that he blatantly lied about the reason he got out of the car and about the nature and duration of the fight(assuming that a fight occurred) between him and Martin. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/245 "2012-04-16T08:21:36Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > I would say that Zimmerman was “suspicious” of Martin. And that doesn’t assume guilt. Listen to his 911 call again. You don’t get , “on drugs” Up to no good" and “these assholes always get away” from suspicion. Especially when Martin had done nothing to waarrant any of that except be a young black male. You can tell from his choice of words and when he gets out to follow him. He doesn’t seem at all conscious of Martin’s perspective of being followed for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/246 "2012-04-16T08:22:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not to mention that he blatantly lied about the reason he got out of the car and about the nature and duration of the fight(assuming that a fight occurred) between him and Martin. He did? How so? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/247 "2012-04-16T13:23:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > This is what I posted before: > > “Unless she has a secret witness who, with night-vision-goggles, observed Zimmerman sucker-punching Martin while screaming racial epithets, she is not going to get murder second degree.” > > But what I would expect for her to be able to even attempt to prove the charge is a witness (or preferably multiple ones) that saw Zimmerman initiate the physical confrontation or at least brandish a weapon. Lacking that, if she can show that Zimmerman shot Martin while sitting on him (maybe a bullet in the ground under Martin) that would be something. > > Without such explosive evidence she really has no way to prove her charge. If she has nothing like that, it is pure bluff and grandstanding. _sigh_ Suppose she has three different versions of the story from Zimmerman, each coming after the police presented him with physical evidence that didn’t match his current story? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/248 "2012-04-16T13:27:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Not to mention that he blatantly lied about the reason he got out of the car and about the nature and duration of the fight(assuming that a fight occurred) between him and Martin. He did? How do you know? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/249 "2012-04-16T13:37:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Good. No, I don’t think it is paranoid for someone with CCW license to carry the gun everywhere he goes, including driving to the grocery store. That’s what people get the CCW license for - to carry the gun with them in case they need it. And if they knew beforehand at what point they would need it, and carried it only in that case - they could earn a lot of money as clairvoyants. It’s just my opinion, but if you think you need to pack heat wherever you go, then you’ve got shit for brains. If Zimmerman had packed pepper spray and not a pistol, Martin would have gotten to eat his Skittles and finished watching the NBA All Star Game. Bill Cosby is exactly right, this case is all about the gun. Thanks to the NRA and ALEC, we’ve all got to fear Dirty Harry wannabes putting holes through us. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/250 "2012-04-16T13:45:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ > > Suppose she has three different versions of the story from Zimmerman, each coming after the police presented him with physical evidence that didn’t match his current story? And she may be thinking that given his 911 call and the fact that he got out armed to follow Martin, he was the aggressor. Even if it’s accurate that Martin knocked him done and was trying to get his gun away from him , Martin was defending himself. It will be interesting to see if she had anything new. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/251 "2012-04-16T13:48:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s just my opinion, but if you think you need to pack heat wherever you go, then you’ve got shit for brains. If Zimmerman had packed pepper spray and not a pistol, Martin would have gotten to eat his Skittles and finished watching the NBA All Star Game. Bill Cosby is exactly right, this case is all about the gun. Thanks to the NRA and ALEC, we’ve all got to fear Dirty Harry wannabes putting holes through us. One of Z’man’s friend doing the tour, or his brother, said if Z’man hadn’t defended himself we’d be talking about his death now. I thought, that’s assuming quite a bit isn’t it, that Martin’s intention was not just to take the gun away from the man , but to kill him. ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/252 "2012-04-16T13:59:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ > > Suppose she has three different versions of the story from Zimmerman, each coming after the police presented him with physical evidence that didn’t match his current story? [http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/a-look-at-what-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/a-look-at-what-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083) > [@](#): > > Police stressed that Zimmerman was interviewed at least three times and gave a videotaped statement and a walk-through of what happened. Zimmerman, whose father is a retired Virginia magistrate, never asked for an attorney or changed his story, former Sanford police Chief Bill Lee said. Has Zimmerman allowed himself to be interviewed by investigators since the case was turned over to the special prosecutor? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/253 "2012-04-16T14:41:47Z")
> [@newme](#): > > [http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/a-look-at-what-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/a-look-at-what-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083) > > Has Zimmerman allowed himself to be interviewed by investigators since the case was turned over to the special prosecutor? Here is another [piece](http://www.tampabay.com/news/ibstand-yourbiib-ground-a-killer-defensebi/1220671) published in the same paper you quote, the Tampa Bay Times: > [@](#): > > Zimmerman, who outweighed the teenager by close to 100 pounds, had a bloody nose and an explanation of self-defense. It now seems possible that Zimmerman did not outweigh the teenager by close to 100 pounds, doesn’t it? So … that would mean the Tampa Bay Times reported something on this case that turned out not to be true, does it not? So… why are you so sure that this quote you offer is true? What makes it different? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/254 "2012-04-16T16:36:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here is another [piece](http://www.tampabay.com/news/ibstand-yourbiib-ground-a-killer-defensebi/1220671) published in the same paper you quote, the Tampa Bay Times: > > It now seems possible that Zimmerman did not outweigh the teenager by close to 100 pounds, doesn’t it? > > So … that would mean the Tampa Bay Times reported something on this case that turned out not to be true, does it not? > > So… why are you so sure that this quote you offer is true? What makes it different? The “outweighed by 100 lb” thing is pulled by the paper from thin air, unattributed. The “never asked for an attorney or changed his story” comes from “former Sanford police Chief Bill Lee”, with full attribution. That’s what makes it different. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/255 "2012-04-16T16:50:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The “outweighed by 100 lb” thing is pulled by the paper from thin air, unattributed. > > The “never asked for an attorney or changed his story” comes from “former Sanford police Chief Bill Lee”, with full attribution. > > That’s what makes it different. I see. But Chief Lee, given that he had a motive to sugarcoat his department’s performance in light of subsequent criticism… might he have hedged a little? Is it possible? ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/256 "2012-04-16T17:01:26Z")
I wasn’t there but I have heard that Zimm lost sight of Martin. And then as he was going back to his vehicle the confrontation occurred. What’s interesting is that everyone keeps stating who weighs what and how tall. I submit that a solid punch from neck on up is a serious thing to deal with. Even though Zimm weighed more than Martin I would say Martin had the advantage in a standing confrontation. Due to his height he had presumably a longer reach. Maybe that is how he was able to knock Zimm down with a single punch. I can tell you that a 140 pound kid scoring a perfect punch like that would be devastating to anyone from a one on one physical altercation. A real “game changer”. I bet a punch like that caught Zimm completely off gaurd as it would anyone. Obviously, wasn’t there just drawing my own conclusions based on my training. However, if Zimm had gotten the first punch in I would say he would have been lucky first, and had he been in Martin’s “gaurd b” would have had the clear advantage and not needed a gun at all. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/257 "2012-04-16T17:17:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I see. > > But Chief Lee, given that he had a motive to sugarcoat his department’s performance in light of subsequent criticism… might he have hedged a little? Is it possible? It’s also possible he was telling the truth, isn’t it? Probable, in fact. Why tell a lie that he knew could, and would, so easily be found out, casting his department in an even worse light? That would make no sense. You’re grasping at straws here, **Bricker** , which is most unlike you. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/258 "2012-04-16T17:21:41Z")
It’s also possible that the prosecutor did in fact decide to press charges based on the merits of the case, and not, as has been argued here, because of political pressure. Is it not? It’s also possible that she believes that the facts of the case justify a murder 2 charge. It’s probable, in fact. Because, why would she tell a lie that will so easily be found out when the case goes to trial? That would make no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/259 "2012-04-16T17:27:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > It’s also possible that the prosecutor did in fact decide to press charges based on the merits of the case, and not, as has been argued here, because of political pressure. Is it not? It’s also possible that she believes that the facts of the case justify a murder 2 charge. It’s possible but she certainly didn’t present any of those merits in her affidavit. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/260 "2012-04-16T17:33:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s possible but she certainly didn’t present any of those merits in her affidavit. And Chief Lee didn’t present anything at all to support his claim that Zimmerman’s story didn’t change. You take him at his word, but the prosecutor is obviously lying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=14)