# Question about the Trayvon Martin Case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504 "2012-04-11T22:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/261 "2012-04-16T17:37:23Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And Chief Lee didn’t present anything at all to support his claim that Zimmerman’s story didn’t change. > > You take him at his word, but the prosecutor is obviously lying. Huh? Chief Lee presented a fact. You may believe him or not, but he did. The Prosecutor didn’t present any facts that justify murder two charges. There is nothing to disbelieve. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/262 "2012-04-16T17:38:10Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And Chief Lee didn’t present anything at all to support his claim that Zimmerman’s story didn’t change. > > You take him at his word, but the prosecutor is obviously lying. Yes. And it amazes me that people don’t see it. Witnesses and evidence that support their side are almost invariably described in ways that emphasize their reliability and lack of motive for anything except the unvarnished facts, while sources on the opposing side seem mired in conflict and motive to deceive. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/263 "2012-04-16T17:40:55Z")
Nobody is challenging Martin’s testimony. Of course, he has the advantage of being dead. Totally unfair. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/264 "2012-04-16T17:49:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Huh? Chief Lee presented a fact. You may believe him or not, but he did. The Prosecutor didn’t present any facts that justify murder two charges. There is nothing to disbelieve. The prosecutor released an affidavit that was sufficient for the state to proceed with a murder 2 charge. You don’t know what other information she’s sitting on. As far as I know, she’s not required to include every piece of damning evidence in the affidavit. All of the information in the affidavit already seemed to be public knowledge, and for all we know, the reason for that is because she didn’t want to release any additional information that might not be public knowledge because it a) wasn’t necessary for the affidavit to stand, and b) it would hurt her case. That seems perfectly reasonable. However, you’ve already decided that she’s lying and is bowing to political pressure, while not admitting that Chief Lee might be subject to the same political pressure and motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/265 "2012-04-16T17:54:21Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > The prosecutor released an affidavit that was sufficient for the state to proceed with a murder 2 charge. You don’t know what other information she’s sitting on. As far as I know, she’s not required to include every piece of damning evidence in the affidavit. She didn’t include any. Not every. Any. The only fact that she presents that shows that something criminal happened was that Martin was fatally shot. > [@](#): > > However, you’ve already decided that she’s lying and is bowing to political pressure, while not admitting that Chief Lee might be subject to the same political pressure and motivations. Where did I say she was “lying”? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/266 "2012-04-16T17:57:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > She didn’t include any. Not every. Any. The only fact that she presents that shows that something criminal happened was that Martin was fatally shot. > > Where did I say she was “lying”? So you’re saying the affidavit is fraudulent and the state should drop all charges? If that’s not happening, then I’d say she supplied enough information in it. She said she did not decide to bring charges based on political pressure. Don’t you think she’s lying about that? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/267 "2012-04-16T18:05:18Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So you’re saying the affidavit is fraudulent and the state should drop all charges? If that’s not happening, then I’d say she supplied enough information in it. It is not “fraudulent”. It presents no facts to support the charges. Yes, based on the affidavit and the facts presented in it, the state should not have arrested Zimmerman. But since that never ever happens, the state did. > [@](#): > > She said she did not decide to bring charges based on political pressure. Don’t you think she’s lying about that? Ah you got me. Yes. She lied. She’s a politician. Politicians lie. Surprised? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/268 "2012-04-16T18:08:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah you got me. Yes. She lied. She’s a politician. Politicians lie. Surprised? But Chief Lee would never lie. I’ll be surprised when you admit that you see your own hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/269 "2012-04-16T18:09:16Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > But Chief Lee would never lie. Chief Lee presented a fact. Corey has yet to present any to support her charges. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/270 "2012-04-16T18:29:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Nobody is challenging Martin’s testimony. Of course, he has the advantage of being dead. Totally unfair. What does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/271 "2012-04-16T18:29:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Corey has yet to present any to support her charges. What should we conclude from that, given that the trial has not started? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/272 "2012-04-16T18:41:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Chief Lee presented a fact. Corey has yet to present any to support her charges. You’re using as your source the disgraced police chief who’s handling of the case was so bad he was forced to step down and you’re trying to argue he’s a credible source. Also Lee has presented other “facts” that have turned out to be complete bullshit. Amongst other things Lee claimed that it couldn’t be a case of racial profiling because Zimmerman couldn’t identify in his phone call to 911 whether or not Martin was white or black, however on the 911 tapes Zimmerman specifically says “he looks black” and "he’s a black male."[http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/19/the-zimmerman-tapes-911-recordings-released-from-shooting-of-teen-in-florida-by-watchman/](http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/19/the-zimmerman-tapes-911-recordings-released-from-shooting-of-teen-in-florida-by-watchman/) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/273 "2012-04-16T19:46:37Z")
Zimmerman’s story of they exchanged words and then Martin struck him may indeed be true, and the one he repeated , but that doesn’t tell us the nature of the exchange. I’m guessing here that the profiling that is clear in his 911 call, and the fact that he got out armed and followed Martin may be the foundation of the charge , and from there Martin is defending himself against an armed man who is after him. I previously thought that who approached who might be key, but now I’m not so sure. Wouldn’t SYG apply to Martin if he made one effort to get away from Z’man and his car only to discover he was being followed on foot? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/274 "2012-04-16T20:11:32Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Zimmerman’s story of they exchanged words and then Martin struck him may indeed be true, and the one he repeated , but that doesn’t tell us the nature of the exchange. > > I’m guessing here that the profiling that is clear in his 911 call, and the fact that he got out armed and followed Martin may be the foundation of the charge , and from there Martin is defending himself against an armed man who is after him. > > I previously thought that who approached who might be key, but now I’m not so sure. > > Wouldn’t SYG apply to Martin if he made one effort to get away from Z’man and his car only to discover he was being followed on foot? SYG (and most laws in general) apply to people who’re alive. “Profiling” is not against the law. Walking around armed is not against the law, if you have a CCW license (as Zimmerman had). Following someone is not against the law. None of these facts justify the murder second degree charge. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/275 "2012-04-16T20:48:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What should we conclude from that, given that the trial has not started? I rummaged around to see what is usually included in the Affidavits of Probable Cause" in murder cases. Here take a look: [http://www.pal-item.com/assets/pdf/A0187248329.PDF](http://www.pal-item.com/assets/pdf/A0187248329.PDF) [http://www.wzzm13.com/pdf/dawsonaffidavit.pdf](http://www.wzzm13.com/pdf/dawsonaffidavit.pdf) > **[SKMBT\_75111101012490.pdf](https://media.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/other/SKMBT_75111101012490.pdf)** > > 438.94 KB [http://www.julianawoodworth.com/grace/affidavit.pdf](http://www.julianawoodworth.com/grace/affidavit.pdf) [http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/mywesttexas.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/7f/87f80e3c-67d6-11e1-8d49-0019bb2963f4/4f56870cb461e.pdf.pdf](http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/mywesttexas.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/8/7f/87f80e3c-67d6-11e1-8d49-0019bb2963f4/4f56870cb461e.pdf.pdf) There are literally thousands of these floating around on the web. Can you find me just one that is as skimpy on facts or evidence as the one in Zimmerman’s case? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/276 "2012-04-16T21:06:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, it was not clear. At best, \*\*the altered photo \*\*show a smudge on GZ’s head. There is no way to determine if it was an injury, a grass stain, or a photograpic artifact unrelated to the scuffle. It wasnt a photo. It was a video. Are we looking at the same thing? > [@cosmosdan](#): > > So, we don’t know if he intended to wait in his vehicle or continue to look around , or who approached who. We dont know alot frankly. We see a lot of people discounting what they want based on what they want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![blinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@blinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/277 "2012-04-16T21:07:15Z")
Black kills white + stand your ground = INSTANT ARREST ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/278 "2012-04-17T03:03:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > SYG (and most laws in general) apply to people who’re alive. > > “Profiling” is not against the law. > > Walking around armed is not against the law, if you have a CCW license (as Zimmerman had). > > Following someone is not against the law. > > None of these facts justify the murder second degree charge. But all of them together might. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/279 "2012-04-17T07:28:42Z")
It looks like we’re in widespread agreement: [ul][li] It was perfectly legal for Zimmerman to approach (presumably innocent) Martin in a hostile manner. Especially since Martin was wearing a hoodie.[/li][li] Because of SYG law, it was then perfectly legal for Martin to respond to Zimmerman in a hostile manner.[/li][li] Because of SYG law, it was then perfectly legal for Zimmerman to shoot Martin dead.[/li][/ul] The Zimmerman team wants to focus on whether there’s evidence to convict of crime. Whether Zimmerman’s actions were _moral_ just doesn’t seem to be of interest. Neither does the question “Does Florida’s SYG law make a parody of America’s fascination with guns and law-and-order?” Going forward, the lessons seem clear: [ul][li]Don’t bring your fists to a gunfight.[/li][li] Unless you’re black. In that case, don’t wear a hoodie.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/280 "2012-04-17T13:06:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Wouldn’t SYG apply to Martin if he made one effort to get away from Z’man and his car only to discover he was being followed on foot? I think it would, but what this means is that Martin couldn’t be prosecuted for using deadly force against Zimmerman. So that concept doesn’t really apply to a dead kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504.md?page=15)